A conservative and liberal difference

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mcg
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26 Apr 2011, 12:02 am

We need no immigration restrictions above plain old private property rights. If I want to sell my property to a Mexican, then why should the federal government be able to tell me otherwise?

psychohist
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26 Apr 2011, 12:26 am

DW_a_mom wrote:

They would all LIKE to be legal

I am not convinced. The $5 an hour farm workers, sure, they'd like to be legal, and we really need a mechanism to allow them to work in the U.S. legally without making it so expensive it puts the farms out of business. But the $17 an hour nannies? I think a lot of them are just as happy avoiding 15% social security and nanny taxes; at $20 an hour pretax, some of them would lose their jobs.

And the idea that we should just live with a system where cheaters get advantages over the would be immigrants who play by the rules, and where we accept that sometimes a shipment of illegals ends up dying in a locked tractor trailer - that's just broken.

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Most of our ancestors got here before we had a law on the concept at all. No quotas, no rules.

This may be true for your ancestors, but most of mine - and all of my wife's - immigrated under quotas during the 20th century, then went through a prolonged naturalization process, learned English, passed strict citizenship tests, etc.

But you know what? Eliminate income taxes for legal aliens and for citizens, and I'll have no objections to the illegal immigrants who don't pay tax.

DW_a_mom
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26 Apr 2011, 12:48 am

psychohist wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

They would all LIKE to be legal

In my experience, trying to earn without paying tax was a sport that many citizens were eager to play, too. Hiring a nanny above the table was interesting, and everyone I interviewed was legal.

I saw a lot of people take advantage of the illegals. They weren't paying them 17. Someone who is illegal cannot drive, and that knocks the nanny pay potential down a lot.

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psychohist
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26 Apr 2011, 1:35 am

DW_a_mom wrote:

I saw a lot of people take advantage of the illegals. They weren't paying them 17. Someone who is illegal cannot drive, and that knocks the nanny pay potential down a lot.

$17 was the going rate for illegal nannies that people I knew saw and paid. Legal nannies were very difficult to find due to the tax free competition from the illegals. The situation may be different in Northern California, which is much farther from the border.

Illegal aliens have no problems driving in Massachusetts. If you don't get stopped, your driver's license doesn't get checked, though our current administration would probably have no problem giving them to illegals anyway. I doubt it's much different in southern California.

Subotai
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26 Apr 2011, 1:44 am

There are plenty of legal citizens who work under the table.

The government turns a blind eye on many illegal immigrants effectively allowing certain industries like slaughter houses to employ them en masse, which these industries prefer since these workers have no rights. The government will come in and make token arrests and deportations just for face value. They are in partnership with this racket and innocent people are being used and discarded.
They do the dangerous under-payed work and most citizens are programmed to look at them disdainfully from their positions of comparatively disgusting levels of of wealth and privilege.

Inuyasha
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26 Apr 2011, 8:36 am

Subotai wrote:

Why do you think I am for employers of illegals getting hit with more than just fines...

Subotai
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26 Apr 2011, 8:56 am

Inuyasha wrote:

Subotai wrote:

Why do you think I am for employers of illegals getting hit with more than just fines...

I'd say the fines are really just for face value as well. Many of the regulators were formerly involved in the industries they now regulate!

DW_a_mom
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26 Apr 2011, 9:43 am

psychohist wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

I saw a lot of people take advantage of the illegals. They weren't paying them 17. Someone who is illegal cannot drive, and that knocks the nanny pay potential down a lot.

Legal nannies are hard to find because nannies are treated in the adult world like 3rd class citizens. I have two friends who choose it for a career but left when they got tired of the snotty attitudes of people they met socially. Both were top notch, educated, and just happened to adore kids. But everyone assumes you must have been unable to find "better" work.

Illegals fill jobs the labor pool is short on. They come because the work demand exists. The work demand exists because some jobs the rest of us don't value enough.

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Subotai
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26 Apr 2011, 9:49 am

Illegals probably do more good than harm economically. Being scapegoats is just another strategic use for them by the powers that be.

DW_a_mom
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26 Apr 2011, 1:09 pm

Subotai wrote:

Illegals probably do more good than harm economically.

There are economic studies that show exactly that: they put more in than they take out.

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psychohist
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26 Apr 2011, 1:11 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

Again, possibly true where you live, but not generalizable to the entire U.S. There are plenty of legal nannies here in Massachusetts; we live far enough away from the Mexican border that tax free competition from illegals is not an issue in that particular market.

Quote:

Illegals fill jobs the labor pool is short on. They come because the work demand exists. The work demand exists because some jobs the rest of us don't value enough.

The work demand exists because tax and welfare rules make legal labor too expensive.

DW_a_mom
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26 Apr 2011, 4:53 pm

psychohist wrote:

Quote:

Illegals fill jobs the labor pool is short on. They come because the work demand exists. The work demand exists because some jobs the rest of us don't value enough.

The work demand exists because tax and welfare rules make legal labor too expensive.

On that, we'll have to agree to disagree

But I do understand where you are coming from ... the factor is there. Just how much it pulls v. the others ... I feel the others are stronger.

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ruveyn
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27 Apr 2011, 11:44 am

Tequila wrote:

It depends. I consider myself a conservative, but of a very classical liberal kind. One can be both a liberal and a conservative at the same time.

In the U.S. this is called libertarian.

ruveyn

JakobVirgil
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27 Apr 2011, 11:50 am

ruveyn wrote:

Tequila wrote:

It depends. I consider myself a conservative, but of a very classical liberal kind. One can be both a liberal and a conservative at the same time.

In the U.S. this is called libertarian.

ruveyn

holy crap. I just realized there are no classical conservatives left.

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cdfox7
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27 Apr 2011, 12:19 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Tequila wrote:

It depends. I consider myself a conservative, but of a very classical liberal kind. One can be both a liberal and a conservative at the same time.

In the U.S. this is called libertarian.

ruveyn

holy crap. I just realized there are no classical conservatives left.

They when the same way as the divine right of Kings.
Yes liberal conservatism is an oxymoron, however in England it is the political ideology of classical conservatism & free market economics.

So Tequila are you a liberal conservative or a conservative liberal?
The Tory's & the Lib Dem's can't make there mind up if there conservative, liberal, liberal conservative or conservative liberal!
As my guess is that your conservative liberal ex Tory whos pissed off with the EU lovers. I myself am a social liberal

Inuyasha
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27 Apr 2011, 12:20 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Tequila wrote:

It depends. I consider myself a conservative, but of a very classical liberal kind. One can be both a liberal and a conservative at the same time.

In the U.S. this is called libertarian.

ruveyn

holy crap. I just realized there are no classical conservatives left.

No, you just seem to think the only good conservative is either a closet leftist or a dead one...

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