Atheists - prove it.

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kladky
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08 May 2011, 10:41 pm

Fnord wrote:

kladky wrote:

I have a new challenge - convince me. Prove to me that your beliefs are the right ones. Something, at some point, convinced you that this was the right way to go. I want to know what it is.

1) The utter failure of Christianity to deliver on its promises.
2) The hypocrisy of Christian leadership when condemning lesser members for their indiscretions.
3) The smarmy condescendancy of Christians when questioned.
4) The exclusionary practices of Christians with regards to needy believers.
5) The inclusionary practices of Christians with regard to wealthy visitors.
6) The rampant judgmentalism of Christians with regard to those less fortunate than themselves.
7) The constant use of subjective validation when Christians 'interpret' the Bible to fit their personal agendae.

The insidious ways Christians have of blaming those whose prayers are never answered.
9) The intolerance Christians show for any suggestion that their religious dogma may be arbitrary and not Bible-based.
10) The contentious and confrontational methods that Christians have for challenging others' beliefs.
11) The malicious ways that Christians have of laying the sole fault on victims for the disasters that befall them.
12) The lack of compassion Christians have for 'outsiders', when those are the very people that need it the most.

"I do like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." - The Mahatma, Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

What would India be like today if Gandhi had been treated by Christians the way that Christians want to be treated themselves?

You make one of my points for me. Christ is the example to follow. Many Christians are not. All of the arguments you condemn so-called Christianity with are condemned in the Bible as well. For example, Christ and his followers did not advocate partiality to each other or others.

"If you continue showing favortism, you are working a sin."
James 2: 8, 9

"I perceive that God is not partial but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him."
Acts 10: 34, 35

"All things therefore that you want men to do to you, you also must likewise do to them."
Matthew 7:12

Just because a group of people claiming to be Christians get it all wrong, that is no reason for you to assume that the fault must rest with the teachings of Christ. You must look into the Bible, not any denomination's dogma or actions, for what Christ was all about.

Very well. You've told me what you think is wrong about Christianity. Now please answer my question. What is right about atheism?

kladky
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08 May 2011, 10:46 pm

aspi-rant wrote:

maybe the most known redicule:

omnipotens.

even young children make fun of this by posing the simplest catch-22 question:

Quote:

can god create a stone so heavy that he can not lift it up?

if he can create such a stone ... and thus can not lift it, he is not omnipotent...

if he can not create such a stone.... he's not omnipotent either.

conclusion: god can not be omnipotent.

simple prove that a god as described in the bible does not exist.

to that christians usually answer:

....... [fill in some bad excuse why this is not a valid question to ask about god]....

Ever heard this one?

"It is impossible for God to lie."
Hebrews 6:18

God is not capable of everything. That doesn't prove God is impossible.

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08 May 2011, 10:51 pm

Didn't this Jesus character constantly profess to be sent of his father, the genocidal, infanticidal, misogynist sadist of the Old Testament?
And that he had come to uphold the word of the prophets of that tradition who had carried out these horrific acts?

Did the birth of his son, conceived in rape, make ol' cranky Yahweh turn over a new leaf, or did he just start behavioral therapy around that time?

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08 May 2011, 10:58 pm

Bethie wrote:

Powerful stuff, but be careful. A lot of Jesus lovers here seem to strongly believe he was an angel or a very pleasant character to be with.

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08 May 2011, 11:05 pm

What I find strange is why the thread puts the burden of proof on us when God hasn't been proven

cdfox7
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08 May 2011, 11:05 pm

Bethie wrote:

Prove that god is a rapist?
If you don't believe god exists, then the 'rapist' done not exists!

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08 May 2011, 11:06 pm

kladky wrote:

Just because a group of people claiming to be Christians get it all wrong, that is no reason for you to assume that the fault must rest with the teachings of Christ. You must look into the Bible, not any denomination's dogma or actions, for what Christ was all about.

Well, Christianity relies on the existence of people claiming to be Christians that actually *are*. The problem is that nobody can really seemingly agree on who the real Christians are. Now, if Christianity is to be considered the city on the hill, a people guided by the Holy Spirit, etc... why is it so difficult for anybody to really know with certainty who the real Christians are? Why have there been endless doctrinal disputes? Why have countless leaders proven themselves defunct through various abuses? I mean, after all, if none of these denominations can get it right, then how can even the *Christians* know who is really being guided by God? And if the differences are so difficult to perceive, then isn't the claim that nobody is actually a Christian in the sense of people guided by God and the indwelling of Christ, more credible than the existence of a Christian?

Quote:

Very well. You've told me what you think is wrong about Christianity. Now please answer my question. What is right about atheism?

Uh... that other beliefs are not justifiable. If you've noticed, the vast majority of the atheists here have made the claim that atheism is a negative claim more than a positive claim. This is not to say that most atheists don't have worldviews with positive claims, and that they justify their negative claims with positive truth-claims. It is only that with the nature of what is being presented, truth will be the justification. (In any case, I don't agree with a lot of Fnord's methodology in making his claims) However, right... I mean, what other justification would you want? Materialism is a better worldview too... but, that's because non-materialist metaphysics are false.

Last edited by Awesomelyglorious on 08 May 2011, 11:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

kladky
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08 May 2011, 11:07 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:

kladky wrote:

I have a new challenge - convince me. Prove to me that your beliefs are the right ones.

It is irresponsible to effect such a shift in your beliefs in a handful of minutes. It is bad for you. Every atheist here who was raised to believe in something else became an atheist as a result of lengthy reflection and a gradual accumulation of various information about the living world. Some have done better than others.

For starters, I would recommend educating yourself on both the Islamic Golden Age and the Protestant Reformation. Consider the advent of Ash'ari shool of thought in Islam, and try to grasp why this movement might have taken hold. How does it resemble similar movements in the West? In what ways has it taken a different course, and why? And consider the Protestant Reformation and the subsequent Catholic Revival: what were the consequences of these two movements? Finally, juxtapose the fall of the Islamic Golden Age with the rise of the West, and spend long hours meditating and reflecting on one question: why?

Also, when you are going through the Gospels, read every part of the Bible that is ever referenced by Jesus. Thoroughly. If he references it again, go back and review. Consider whether you agree or disagree with Jesus' interpretations of different parts of Isaiah, Hosea and other books.

Furthermore, I advise that you learn how to find reliable, solid, scholarly articles on neuroscience, and learn how to read and understand them. This means that you should use resources such as NCBI and Web of Science, which you can access at your nearby university library.

Oh, but this isn't going to change your mind on atheism in a few moments. It won't change you over the course of a year. If you are wise, you will shape your beliefs and ideas and views in the same way that every other sensible, intelligent human being does, which is through thousands of quiet moments of meditation and introspection. Earn it the honest way. I can't guarantee that you will eventually agree with atheism, but it will serve to make you a better person.

But I cannot and will not change your mindset for you. Only you can do that.

Quote:

Something, at some point, convinced you that this was the right way to go. I want to know what it is.

Sir, I believed at the time that religion was being proposed to me as an easy answer that didn't require me to think, and I think that you would concur that, in light of what I was given to believe, a person of my sensibilities would find it to be a turn-off almost invariably.

I appreciate your candor. Thank you for a well thought out and honest answer.

I am familiar with the Protestant Reformation and Catholic Revival but not the Islamic Golden Age. I will have to look into that. I am well-versed in the Gospels and the references that Jesus made to the Tanakh. I have done quite a bit of meditation on all of these points and how humanity came to be where it is.

In essence, it seems that you and I began on similar paths and ended up in different destinations. I do not intend to change my views in a matter of minutes, nor do I expect anyone here to. I merely hope that something I say will spark interest in someone here and get them to rethink what they believe is the absolute truth.

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08 May 2011, 11:10 pm

kladky wrote:

Ever heard this one?

"It is impossible for God to lie."
Hebrews 6:18

God is not capable of everything. That doesn't prove God is impossible.

Well, if God isn't physically capable of anything that can be done, he isn't omnipotent. If God is both described as omnipotent and not omnipotent, then he is non-existent, as he would be a logical contradiction.

That being said, one can claim God omnipotent, and save God from contradiction with the impossibility of lies if one argues that God is physically capable of lying, but morally incapable, holding that character claims constrain decision-making. (Note: people start getting into trouble here because they try to invoke ultra-libertarian free will processes, and the best method is to reject those as invalid.) The issue is that making this adjust still doesn't refute the omnipotence paradox. I suppose one could argue that nothing could lift a stone defined as unliftable, thus if God's omnipotence is defined as the ability to do the physically/logically possible, the unliftable stone is no contradiction, as either God cannot create such a stone as it is impossible to create, or God cannot lift such a stone, as once created it is logically impossible to lift.... but I figure some people will continue to disagree.

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08 May 2011, 11:10 pm

cdfox7 wrote:

Bethie wrote:

Prove that god is a rapist?
If you don't believe god exists, then the 'rapist' done not exists!

Well Mary certainly wasn't a virgin. Unless someone jerked off to her, came on her, and she rubbed her p**** with it.

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08 May 2011, 11:11 pm

Bethie wrote:

Did the birth of his son, conceived in rape, make ol' cranky Yahweh turn over a new leaf, or did he just start behavioral therapy around that time?

No penetration with divine conception. Also, Mary probably should be seen as consenting anyway.

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08 May 2011, 11:11 pm

kladky wrote:

Very well. You've told me what you think is wrong about Christianity. Now please answer my question. What is right about atheism?

It avoids slavery to false 'gods', false 'prophets', and arbitrary religious doctrines.

Atheists tend to approach claims from a skeptical basis. This skepticism enables rejection of claims that are based on 'faith', popularity, false authority, threats, or appeals to emotion. This means that many atheists and skeptics are less vulnerable to the more charismatic methods of manipulation - such as used by charlatans, politicians, salespeople, telemarketers and televangelists - than many Religionists (i.e., Christians, Muslims, et cetera).

One of the basic 'rules' of skepticism is that the person stating a claim must provide valid supporting evidence for that claim. From this has arisen the Scientific Methods, which have led to advances in law, forensic investigation, medicine, agriculture, and many other fields of science. The Scientific Method also helped to bring Western civilization out of the Dark Ages and into the Renaissance, and has progressively freed humanity from superstition and religious persecution.

We're not totally free from the tyranny of religion, but there has already been a severe decline in this tyranny in most of the Western World. Unfortunately, there are still countries where people are persecuted for witchcraft, sorcery, and having the "wrong" religion.

Even in America, there are people who insist that those with the "wrong" religion or religious ancestry be barred from citizenship and political office. Some of the people I go to church with have even claimed that Atheists should have their civil rights revoked and be forbidden from owning land or businesses.

Bottom line: It is not faith or lack thereof that poses any threat. It is the mis-application of arbitrary dogma in an effort to inhibit free thought and coerce people to engage in the same exclusionary and oppressive practices as any dictatorial regime.

Last edited by Fnord on 08 May 2011, 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kladky
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08 May 2011, 11:13 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:

Besides what I said above, Kladky, here are the details of what is wrong with "traditional" Christianity (fundamentalism):

Does not apply to People Who Think Once in a While.

Ok.

I don't believe Jesus was his own father.
I don't believe I have to eat his flesh, literally or symbolically, to live forever.
I don't believe Jesus has removed any "evil force" from me. I am still partly evil.
I do not agree with Christian fundamentalists on many other points as well.

Okay, you got me on the rib-woman, talking snake, and tree. :wink:

However, I still don't agree with fundamentalists on what was really going on in that garden.

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08 May 2011, 11:19 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

cdfox7 wrote:

Bethie wrote:

Prove that god is a rapist?
If you don't believe god exists, then the 'rapist' done not exists!

Well Mary certainly wasn't a virgin. Unless someone jerked off to her, came on her, and she rubbed her p**** with it.

I guess you haven't hear of Parthenogenesis then? Then again its not a piece of scientific knowledge that back up then non existence of god now.
Selective use of scientific knowledge to preach the word of the non existence of god, you what that's called don't you is dogma!

kladky
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08 May 2011, 11:23 pm

ryan93 wrote:

*sighs loudly

The burden of evidence is on the party postulating the existence of a thing, not those who disbelieve in it....

Atheism isn't an active disbelief in God (or it isn't necessarily such), but it is just a lack of belief. The former requires evidence, the latter does not.

It's up to the Religious to prove God, and then prove their God above other Gods. They ask for absolute disproof of God, but they never offer anything remotely like absolute proof of his existence. Double Standards.

I understand. Thank you

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08 May 2011, 11:25 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

What I find strange is why the thread puts the burden of proof on us when God hasn't been proven

In my own case, I only ask for a more-rational explanation. I can say "the power of 'God'" has been proven to me, and I can say that while easily accepting my own belief proves nothing to anyone else ...

... and yet people would ridicule me without even trying to help me understand how anything else might have actually taken place?!

Bethie wrote:

Pretty sure you recovering from alcohol AFTER you start believing in god as opposed to BEFORE PROVES my point, if anything.

If you really want to break all of that down and discuss things, I will gladly oblige ... but no, a mere willingness to believe "God" actually "could and would" do for me what I could not do for myself (as I had heard from the reports of others) was all I actually had prior to my recovery.

Bethie wrote:

Almost any thread with this topic you bring up your magical recovery from addiction ...

Only when people make flat statements such as yours! :wink:

Bethie wrote:

... and yet fail to cite any definitive separative mechanism differentiating god's actual existence saving you ...

Try to think more precisely there: It is not His mere existence that did anything for me, it is He who did for me what I could not do for myself ... and that is proof to me that He exists. But see, you argue from a purely philosophical (and actually religious) standpoint there (while piggy-backing "science") and against my own empirical knowledge and visceral experience ...

No success possible.

Bethie wrote:

From what I've seen, this is what happened to you:
1. Addiction
2. Conversion/religious vow

No. I simply made a decision to investigate -- take some specific, transformational action -- and find out for myself.

Bethie wrote:

You'll notice an increase in religiosity always PRECEDES seeing "evidence" of a god.

In my own case, I actually first had to get rid of religiosity!

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Last edited by leejosepho on 08 May 2011, 11:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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