After death.

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Would you like to amplify on that "social barbarism"? In contrast to what, social savagery? Social decadence? Who are the social Greeks or, of you like, Romans?

Social barbarism

• Bigotry against gays and lesbians (91, a Catholic, has spoken out against Same-Sex Marriage and Gay/Lesbians Adopting children)
• Subjugation of women
• Belief that those troubled or desiring death are "sinful" and deserve to burn for eternity.

Social enlightenment

• Respect for gays and lesbians.
• Respect for women as equal members of society ready to serve important leadership positions.
• Compassion for the suicidal and, generally, attempts to coax them out (unless it really is a dire case), but respect for their memory rather than the filthy belief they deserve eternal torment.

well, thank you for that.

Contrasting barbarism / enlightenment is unusual, but I realize we are doing labelling not analysis here.

Your specific list of examples is interesting - I would have said there were some practices fitting the "barbaric" description a good deal better.

May talk it some other time. For the moment....

This might just be my experiences, but I find the evangelical protestants to be more vocal. I hear their message more than the Catholics. Pendant, do you have a particular dislike of Catholicism?

Cessation of consciousness topic

This is what death is. b9 wrote so eloquently about it, using water metaphors.

It is like when you fall asleep. You only know this has occurred because you have awakened and remember just before entering slumber. In the case of death, it happens and there is no rememberance because there is no consciousness.

If you want to be remembered after death, leave a will, charitable trust, children, descendants, and evidence of your life in photos, writings, songs, etc.

Very few people sleep so deeply they have no idea they are asleep. Most of us dream and most of us are aware of noises. At my age, my bladder wakes me up two times a night. So, for me, sleep is not the least bit like death or cessation of consciousness.


ruveyn

If you leave descendants, writings, etc., then your life is not merely remembered, it is actively changing the world even after your body dies. For this reason, the death of the body cannot be called the death of the person. IMO.

No peace, just pees topic

Correct. Sleep is not like death, but the moment at which you lose consciousness and slip into slumber (or even when you go under anaesthetic) is what the transition from life to death can be compared with. The difference is that you do not wake up and recall that you did sleep or undergo that surgery.

I hope that you are not having prostate problems. and waking up to pee twice a night is terribly annoying.

Cup of tea, then rebirth.

Do you think, while you are having your cup of tea, you will be aware of all the lives you have lived previously? And will it be earl grey, or sencha green tea?

I used to have quite a negative opinion of Buddhism. I was turned off by the idea that all is suffering. It seemed so depressing. But then I spent 15 years with depression, and now it seems quite realistic. I realise that's not really what the idea is about, it doesn't just refer to depressed people. But I feel less negative about Buddhism than I used to.

One of my biggest problems with Christianity is suffering, not just of people but of animals. The idea that Eve is to blame for all that suffering is preposterous. And I've never understood how any benevolent God could create a world, knowing what would happen, and yet condemning so many living beings to so much suffering.

I fancy some chamomile tea now.

As opposed to the unassailable Logic that is the rest of it...

Ah well, there is that. But as I've said, I'm not good at mixing logic and religion. Actually, it's probably my lack of logic in this matter that makes me feel so aggrieved by that idea. It's not the theology I object to so much, more the effect that belief has had on women throughout the ages. Although one led to the other.

There aren't many religions where women come off well. Bahai's maybe.

ryan, do you find religion interesting in itself, as an anthropological study? Or does the whole thing just make you angry/strident?

For all that has been said on the subject, there seems to have been very little looking at realities.

Proposition:

Christianity has put down women.

It would seem reasonable, then, to look at the status of women where other religions are in charge.
It would seem reasonable, then, to see what religious ideas are found where women are a. more downtrodden than here and b. less subjugated

Proposition [I am keenly aware of this one]:

The use of the masculine pronoun as unmarked in a language with sex-based grammatical gender is sexist and correlates with male hegemony.

It would seem reasonable, then, to look at languages where the feminine pronoun is the unmarked one to see how that correlates with social structure [useful hint - in a lifetime of checking out all kinds languages I have yet to find or hear tell of such a language]

It would seem reasonable, then, to look at languages with no gender system [like Japanese] or no sex-based gender system, like Cree, to see how thast correlates with social structure.

Proposition:

Religions with a dominant male deity reinforce masculine hegemony.

It would seem reasonable, then, to look at religions where the head of the pantheon is occupied by a female deity, to determine the position of women.

It would seem reasonable. then, to examine religions and similar belief systems which do not postulate a supreme humanoid deity, to determine the position of women under suych conditions.

I freely admit I have not carried out the study. But I have been around and looked around, and I THINK if these investigations are in fact made we will find there is no statistically significant correlation. We may in fact find that a society with no organized religion, with some postulation of powerful female earth spirits, using a language lacking grammatical gender, in some cases assigns women a more subservient role than we see in a Catholic culture using gender-marked Italian.

Or Albanian. Ever interacted with Albanian women? I have here and in Albania. Read up on Mother Teresa.

Gotta love religions which are LITERALLY patriarchal.

Yes, I do. A Church that centralized which covers up so much pedophilia and pedastry is repulsive. Furthermore, I know of at least one Catholic branch that's tried to intimidate important members who are politicians:



http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archiv ... l/05070703

This all happens while the Catholic Church worldwide is hiding and defending pederasts and pedophiles.

Of course, the institutional patriarchy just takes the cake in terms of repulsiveness.