Abortion and Original Sin

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ruveyn
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12 Jun 2011, 8:19 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

YippySkippy wrote:

What diference does it make if the unborn are innocent?
To the abortion debate, I mean.

It's illegal and immoral to murder a person, regardless of whether the victim is a saint or a sinner.
Therefore, those who consider the unborn "people" are opposed to abortion.

Is a fetus a person?

ruveyn

Yes, they are a person from the moment there is brain activity at day 47-48.

Brain activity is not necessarily intellect. A mouse has brain activity too. Is a mouse human?

What makes a person is the kind of brain activity it has.

ruveyn

Inuyasha
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12 Jun 2011, 8:26 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

YippySkippy wrote:

Is a fetus a person?

ruveyn

Yes, they are a person from the moment there is brain activity at day 47-48.

Brain activity is not necessarily intellect. A mouse has brain activity too. Is a mouse human?

What makes a person is the kind of brain activity it has.

ruveyn

A mouse's DNA is different from human DNA. Looking at a person being a person, you either have brain activity or you do not, in the case of the child in the womb we know the brain activity is going to increase, become more complex, etc. You can't say at one level of complexity someone is not a person yet at another that individual is now a person. You either have brain activity or you don't.

Oodain
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12 Jun 2011, 8:56 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

YippySkippy wrote:

Is a fetus a person?

ruveyn

Yes, they are a person from the moment there is brain activity at day 47-48.

Brain activity is not necessarily intellect. A mouse has brain activity too. Is a mouse human?

What makes a person is the kind of brain activity it has.

ruveyn

you are trying to link concepts that have no link, consciousness is not specific to human dna as such the dna does not matter.
the conscoiusness does.

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Inuyasha
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12 Jun 2011, 9:08 pm

Oodain wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

YippySkippy wrote:

Is a fetus a person?

ruveyn

Yes, they are a person from the moment there is brain activity at day 47-48.

Brain activity is not necessarily intellect. A mouse has brain activity too. Is a mouse human?

What makes a person is the kind of brain activity it has.

ruveyn

you are trying to link concepts that have no link, consciousness is not specific to human dna as such the dna does not matter.
the conscoiusness does.

You are trying to equite a human life with a rodent, that is a classic rationalization used by people so they think exterminating large groups of people is okay.

Oodain
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12 Jun 2011, 9:17 pm

@inuyasha

now please explain to me where i said a human was equal to a rodent.

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Philologos
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12 Jun 2011, 9:25 pm

ruveyn wrote:

YippySkippy wrote:

Is a fetus a person?

ruveyn

THAT will depend do you tailor your definition of person to include the fetus or the Inuk or the Superannuated Citizen, or do you tweak it to exclude the embryo or the Tea Partier or the pedophile.

Vexcalibur
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13 Jun 2011, 7:49 am

YippySkippy wrote:

What diference does it make if the unborn are innocent?
To the abortion debate, I mean.

It's illegal and immoral to murder a person, regardless of whether the victim is a saint or a sinner.

We have been here before. I can tell you with 100% fetus that early fetuses are not persons. Let us keep the question about late fetuses open, but most abortion proponents would be fine with just non-late abortion being legal (and with insurance).

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ruveyn
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13 Jun 2011, 8:19 am

Philologos wrote:

THAT will depend do you tailor your definition of person to include the fetus or the Inuk or the Superannuated Citizen, or do you tweak it to exclude the embryo or the Tea Partier or the pedophile.

Be serious. Does a fetus have enough functioning brain tissue to formulate a judgement or a purpose?

ruveyn

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13 Jun 2011, 8:51 am

So does everyone agree that innocence, or lack thereof, makes no difference to the abortion debate?

JakobVirgil
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13 Jun 2011, 9:02 am

YippySkippy wrote:

So does everyone agree that innocence, or lack thereof, makes no difference to the abortion debate?

I always have been.
I am just confused by the rhetorical device "murder of the innocent"
when the innocent bit is not taught by the majority of xtian faiths.
and when Jews (in general) believe the soul enters the body with the breath.
I think there are rational opponents to Abortion rights.
But I think they should stop with the Murder and innocent rhetoric.

btw yes that is really me in my avatar :wink:

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Philologos
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13 Jun 2011, 9:16 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

YippySkippy wrote:

So does everyone agree that innocence, or lack thereof, makes no difference to the abortion debate?

Innocence is neither affirmed or denied in most Christian theologies. Without special pleading redefinition like fetus / neonate not being "persons" "Original Sin" does not affect innocence.

Murder? Perhaps in some cases. I think in most cases "Contributing to the Death of a Minor" would be accurately represent the facts.

Rhetoric - whether in the service of truth or lie - always makes me squirm. Said this a few times the passt few days - wonder why it is comiong up? If a rabbler rouser says something I agree with I examine it five times as hard.

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OddFinn
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13 Jun 2011, 9:42 am

YippySkippy wrote:

So does everyone agree that innocence, or lack thereof, makes no difference to the abortion debate?

Count me in.

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pandabear
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13 Jun 2011, 11:14 am

Inuyasha wrote:

That really doesn't fly if you look at the New Testament, can't think of the exact quote but Jesus basically implied that young children go to heaven.

Jesus "implying" something is not the same as Jesus outright "stating" something. Not being able to think of the exact quote is not the same as stating the exact quote.

Young children have a shot at heaven, if they've been baptized, and been to Bible school.

Fetuses don't.

Unless they were baptized immediately upon removal from the womb (and got some quick Bible instruction) prior to officially dying.

JakobVirgil
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13 Jun 2011, 11:32 am

Inuyasha wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

YippySkippy wrote:

Is a fetus a person?

ruveyn

Yes, they are a person from the moment there is brain activity at day 47-48.

I think this addresses the loopyness of abortion as a wedge issue.
Inuyasha seems to be ok with some abortion i.e. before the 50 day mark
most abortion rights folks are uncomfortable (myself among them) with 3rd trimester abortion.
so this is not a anti and pro abortion argument but one about when is abortion ok.
if we ditch the murder/innocent shtick and strawmaning I think we are closer then we pretend to be.
259–294 days of human gestation.
inyasha gives ground on the first 47 days I give ground on the last 90 (with a health of mother caveat).
giving us 122-157 disputed days about half of the pregnancy. not great but there is common ground.

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iamnotaparakeet
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13 Jun 2011, 11:54 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

If we are conceived in Sin
and are sinful by nature.
then how are the unborn innocent?

If you're willing to make this a theological argument, then it is not that they are arbitrarily innocent. Since, as you allude to the portion of Romans where Paul speaks of "as in Adam, all die" we are 'guilty' of the sin of our ancestor Adam. However, the unborn are not guilty of a capital crime, such as God defined in Genesis 9:6 for murder to be a crime deserving of immediate execution. In this manner, the unborn would not be innocent of the original sin, but they would not be guilty of any capital crime.

As for the case of the possibility of the mother's death, that would be due more to the negligence and/or malpractice of a doctor assisting. A Cesarean section, although not preferable, can also be done to save both the mother's and the child's life in many instances.

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13 Jun 2011, 11:56 am

The new testament does not fit with the old testament but that's another topic.

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