God and Sex

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it would have been better for god to make everyone live for ever and be infertile.

If I understand Genesis correctly, He already tried the living forever thing.

Yes, and why would He try it if He knew from the start that it wouldn't work?

It just makes a good story. If your God exists, then I'm tempted to think he made the Universe to provide himself with a form of twisted amusement.

Did Jesus break the letter of the law, justify doing so, and actually keep the law in the self-same action?
(Don't let your head explode. The above assertion is possible, and did happen.)

God looks upon not just the letter of the law, but that which the letter was given to serve: the spirit of the law.
The letter of the law and the spirit of the law are both the law -- but they are not the same thing. The letter is the servant of the spirit, just as the letters I am typing right now are the servant of my thoughts: they are given in representation of my spirit's meaning.

Pandabear: Note the phrase, "that they might accuse him", ending verse 10. Interesting, that in acting as if they were concerned on moral grounds with the law's violation, their thoughts were actually quite different. Their motive was personal, and negative. Just thought you'd be interested in that.

Also, did Jesus just use certain circumstantial justifications for momentarily veering from the letter of the law? Why, yes He did. Did it make sense? One hundred percent. Perhaps your quarrel is with Him.

Last edited by Ragtime on 25 Oct 2011, 12:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

i was unkind in my response.
i am sorry.

Last edited by b9 on 25 Oct 2011, 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Okay.

Why am I upset? It's just the Internet. I consider you to be harsh.

..
i did not know you would be upset about what i said, as i thought you thought i was stupid, so i did not think you would be affected by my answer.

i did not mean to hurt your feelings.

Last edited by b9 on 25 Oct 2011, 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

But, Ragtime, this type of analysis invites a purposive inquiry into the nature of scripture. You cannot hold up a plain reading of Leviticus and then foreswear any attempt to put those prohibitions into context, and to glean their broader spiritual purpose.

By this measure, there is nothing in scripture that properly limits sexual activity to heterosexual, exclusive marriage. I take the view that what scripture enjoins us to do is to enter into sexual relationships in a spirit of mutual consent, mutual respect and mutual fidelity. But the consent, respect and fidelity are defined by the participants in the sexual relationship, not by arbitrary standards set out in the fallible words of scripture.

It goes back to that whole paradox thing. God created a world in which humans could choose to love God and obey Him or not. That means God unfortunately has to accept that MAYBE His creation might reject Him, but at the same time God provides man with every opportunity to love and obey God. If God had created a world in which man did not have the same choice to make, God couldn't possibly know that man WOULD make the choice to love God given the choice--the reason being is the world in which there is such a choice to make wouldn't exist. You can't claim to know something if it doesn't actually exist. As such it would challenge the notion of God's omniscience. So if it is God's will to create man in His image, then part of that image is shared attributes such as God's creative power and the divine will.

Besides, it's not like God didn't provide a way out for those who do acknowledge and love Him.


Well, ok, but that's a highly subjective opinion. You're basically trying to impose your own personal view of morality, etc., on God. Assuming God exists, it makes more sense that the divine will and divine wisdom is superior to human wisdom. You don't have to understand it, but if you believe in God you have to have faith that whatever is going on "up there" all we see is just a part of that plan that God has for the world and the best thing we can do is pray about it and otherwise just "go with it." If we feel people are treating other people unjustly, then we should make every effort to render justice for them. If there's nothing at all that we can do, then we must be content that God will work it all out in the end. I don't claim to know all of God's reasons. I just know enough not to worry about it.

I'm not sure I agree necessarily with your conclusions, but you do make a good point.

It's only if scripture is INfallible that this makes sense--that is, if one can scripturally oppose homosexuality and related marriage issues.

I think OT Law referred to a specific place and time, and there is some indication by the prophets that Torah was never meant to be permanent. The Law really is only "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength; love your neighbor as yourself." All the rest is just details, and that's where you'd run into the prohibitions you mentioned.

Wow.

Wanna trade worldviews for a day? You have the complete opposite to mine.

In other words, "sex is for procreation ONLY".

By looking at the history and the culture of biblical hebrews, that is what it seems their stand was, given that there were no contraception methods and very likely no such thing as foreplay and sexual play other than vaginal intercourse (romans, greeks and other 'idolaters' did that, so it must be bad). In the end, to enjoy a sex life with your wife (if that term isn't anti-biblical in some sense), not without 12 or possibly more children.

And, masturbation is a no, so biblical sexuality pretty much sucks.

that's not to even mention the sodomites.

But this isn't a "measure", it's a judgment. And surely that's the point. The letter of the law does all the measuring, but it does so in service to the spirit of the law -- also known as the intent. Paul discusses the two here:


Verse 5 is critical for avoiding the fallacy you suggest -- that of near-lawlessness. We can't properly think whatever we think and run with it. As he says, Scriptural interpretation is properly done by and through the spirit of God. Unlike with wise philosophers who wrote great things centuries ago and then died, leaving our generation in some doubt as to the full and total intent behind their words (words can't fully express most concepts), God is not dead, but alive, and thus able to communicate to us in the present about His Word. All of this is expressly written in Scripture.

Don't misunderstand me... People are, for example, accountable for their actions and we should always work hard to learn more about our world and help each other out. And I don't think God just abandoned us here and said, "ok, kids, have fun" like the world is some kind of moral sandbox.

I'm really just stating the obvious--I don't have all the answers, and neither does anyone else. No amount of science and Dr. Phil are going to give us all the answers, either. A greater cruelty would have been if Jesus had "Seek and you will find" and it all had been a lie. I think God WANTS us to seek/find the answers as best we can. But I also think if we have searched as far as we can within our own limits at any given point in time, we can be content just knowing that there IS an answer, even if only God alone knows it. If He wants us to know or find something, He'll let us. I'd say many of the things He's allowed us to do have been pretty amazing, don't you think?

Yes, but I can't fathom why God would withhold knowledge in the first place. Part of the reason I don't believe in God is because these things make no sense to me, so I'm not content to believe them.