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ruveyn
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27 May 2012, 10:03 am

AspieRogue wrote:

And that is why I believe they will probably be the first to launch a nuclear rocket into space.


Believed when seen. As long as a domestic version of the Russian Mafia is running Russia, it is not going to happen.

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27 May 2012, 10:18 am

DeaconBlues wrote:
I am amused by the assumption that the Soviet Union would have openly reported any failures in their space-launch systems. Just like they provided open coverage of their corrupt politicians, and free, unsupervised visitation of any part of their country by foreign nationals...


The Russian space agency is extremely closed minded, secretive, and distrustful. Their practices and quality control are spotty at best compared to American, Canadian, European, and Japanese standards. Close enough is good enough for them and they won't even entertain the thought of anything different. This isn't just speculation on my part but actual experience having worked with some of them and their products intended for space flight.



03 Jun 2012, 9:58 pm

Alright, enough about Russia let's get back to America(since dats where I live :lol: ). If the US government were to pursue R&D into Nuclear Propulsion, it would have to be done in the utmost secrecy because of the public outcry that would occur due to paranoia about anything nuclear thanks in big part to the hippies. I think I know a very good location for this: AREA 51.

And no, I am NOT KIDDING! Forget about the UFO/Alien conspiracies; that place would be ideal to conduct actual testing of nuclear engines as well as develop the technology necessary to build them. What is really needed for nuclear propulsion to work and maximize safety is to use Gas Core Reactors rather than the Solid Core reactors used in power plants and on naval vessels.

Should Uncle Sam retain its monopoly on all things nuclear though?



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04 Jun 2012, 3:04 am

AspieRogue wrote:
Alright, enough about Russia let's get back to America(since dats where I live :lol: ). If the US government were to pursue R&D into Nuclear Propulsion, it would have to be done in the utmost secrecy because of the public outcry that would occur due to paranoia about anything nuclear thanks in big part to the hippies. I think I know a very good location for this: AREA 51.

And no, I am NOT KIDDING! Forget about the UFO/Alien conspiracies; that place would be ideal to conduct actual testing of nuclear engines as well as develop the technology necessary to build them. What is really needed for nuclear propulsion to work and maximize safety is to use Gas Core Reactors rather than the Solid Core reactors used in power plants and on naval vessels.

Should Uncle Sam retain its monopoly on all things nuclear though?


Uncle Sam doesn't have a monopoly on all things nuclear, first off there are other countries in the world, quite a few of them in fact.
Secondly, even in the US civilian companies and university are allowed reactors, see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_reactors
Scroll down to this heading: Civilian Research and Test Reactors Licensed To Operate

Even the US Veterans Administration has a nuclear reactor to play with, along with Kodak, Dow chemicals, GE and lots of universities.



ruveyn
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05 Jun 2012, 9:17 am

AspieRogue wrote:
Alright, enough about Russia let's get back to America(since dats where I live :lol: ). If the US government were to pursue R&D into Nuclear Propulsion, it would have to be done in the utmost secrecy because of the public outcry that would occur due to paranoia about anything nuclear thanks in big part to the hippies. I think I know a very good location for this: AREA 51.

And no, I am NOT KIDDING! Forget about the UFO/Alien conspiracies; that place would be ideal to conduct actual testing of nuclear engines as well as develop the technology necessary to build them. What is really needed for nuclear propulsion to work and maximize safety is to use Gas Core Reactors rather than the Solid Core reactors used in power plants and on naval vessels.

Should Uncle Sam retain its monopoly on all things nuclear though?


It would also violate several environmental protection laws.

The only safe place to use nuclear propulsion is above the atmosphere and launch from orbit. So we still need chemical rockets to get more advanced propulsion systems above the atmosphere and into orbit.

ruveyn



05 Jun 2012, 10:14 am

ruveyn wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
Alright, enough about Russia let's get back to America(since dats where I live :lol: ). If the US government were to pursue R&D into Nuclear Propulsion, it would have to be done in the utmost secrecy because of the public outcry that would occur due to paranoia about anything nuclear thanks in big part to the hippies. I think I know a very good location for this: AREA 51.

And no, I am NOT KIDDING! Forget about the UFO/Alien conspiracies; that place would be ideal to conduct actual testing of nuclear engines as well as develop the technology necessary to build them. What is really needed for nuclear propulsion to work and maximize safety is to use Gas Core Reactors rather than the Solid Core reactors used in power plants and on naval vessels.

Should Uncle Sam retain its monopoly on all things nuclear though?


It would also violate several environmental protection laws.

The only safe place to use nuclear propulsion is above the atmosphere and launch from orbit. So we still need chemical rockets to get more advanced propulsion systems above the atmosphere and into orbit.

ruveyn



Well if you're talking about 100% foolproof safe, then yes. But if a chemical rocket carrying a nuclear payload explodes in mid flight, or the payload fails to achieve orbit, there is also the possibility of contamination. I will admit that I don't know enough about federal law to determine if the Area51 facility is subject to there, because it is officially unacknowledged that makes me wonder if it is exempt from such laws. If a government agency violated such laws there, there are plenty of loopholes that could grant them legal immunity.



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05 Jun 2012, 10:46 am

AspieRogue wrote:


Well if you're talking about 100% foolproof safe, then yes. But if a chemical rocket carrying a nuclear payload explodes in mid flight, or the payload fails to achieve orbit, there is also the possibility of contamination. I will admit that I don't know enough about federal law to determine if the Area51 facility is subject to there, because it is officially unacknowledged that makes me wonder if it is exempt from such laws. If a government agency violated such laws there, there are plenty of loopholes that could grant them legal immunity.


Launch from a spot on the ocean. Problem solved.

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06 Jun 2012, 10:46 am

The reactor isnt radioactive if it's not running yet. You could launch the fuel separately on a smaller rocket and load it later in space (robotically). You could also launch it with an escape rocket, like crew, in case of a launch accident. Having an escape rocket puts the chance of loss at 1-1000 or better. Compared to 1-100 for a big rocket like shuttle. The amount of precaution depends on the amount of radioactive material you are launching. We've already risked small RGBs to power spacecraft like Cassini. Larger loads would require more care.

The problem is financial. NASA, the DOD, and private industry all need rockets so an investor has a proven market to pursue. There is no current market for space based reactors so you'd need to spend a lot of money developing one and then hope that NASA would use it. No other customer would need one for the forseeable future. And NASA is not a rational agency. It's driven by a commitee of congressmen who are concerned about local jobs. Even if you made them a good deal they might not be able to understand it or act on it. They may not even care.

That's a lot of money to risk (billions) for the hope of selling to a single, slightly deranged customer.



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06 Jun 2012, 10:49 am

simon_says wrote:
The reactor isnt radioactive if it's not running yet. You could launch the fuel separately on a smaller rocket and load it later in space (robotically). You could also launch it with an escape rocket, like crew, in case of a launch accident. Having an escape rocket puts the chance of loss at 1-1000 or better. Compared to 1-100 for a big rocket like shuttle. The amount of precaution depends on the amount of radioactive material you are launching. We've already risked small RGBs to power spacecraft like Cassini. Larger loads would require more care.

The problem is financial. NASA, the DOD, and private industry all need rockets so an investor has a proven market to pursue. There is no current market for space based reactors so you'd need to spend a lot of money developing one and then hope that NASA would use it. No other customer would need one for the forseeable future. And NASA is not a rational agency. It's driven by a commitee of congressmen who are concerned about local jobs. Even if you made them a good deal they might not be able to understand it or act on it. They may not even care.

That's a lot of money to risk (billions) for the hope of selling to a single, slightly deranged customer.


There is a market for launching communication satellites. Private companies could pay for the development of a lifter that could launch their satellites.

ruveyn



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06 Jun 2012, 10:51 am

Yes, I said there was a market for launching rockets. The US now has several private launch companies.

But there is no market for space based reactors today. You'd have to hope that NASA (or DOD) would buy them.



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06 Jun 2012, 11:00 am

simon_says wrote:
Yes, I said there was a market for launching rockets. The US now has several private launch companies.

But there is no market for space based reactors today. You'd have to hope that NASA (or DOD) would buy them.


What do we need space based reactors for. We have plenty of energy from the Sun. Us photovoltaics.

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06 Jun 2012, 11:18 am

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What do we need space based reactors for. We have plenty of energy from the Sun. Us photovoltaics.


Nuclear energy is good for any kind of mission that takes you far from the Sun. For anything past Mars. And that's for manned or unmanned. Today they use RTG modules, which turn radioactivity into electricity. Missions to Jupiter, Saturn and beyond used them. But they also used them on Apollo and Viking. The new Mars rover uses one as well. it's reliable, steady power.

But this is really about, I assume, the VASIMR engine. With a nuclear reactor it could in theory get you 40-90 day trips to Mars. To do that with solar power would require immense arrays. Concept missions to Mars often talk about having a reactor on the surface as well. Mars is right on the edge. You could do it with chemical or nuclear. But anything further will likely require nuclear.

But that's pretty much only for NASA. That's really your only customer today and they arent a very reliable one. .A billionaire with a space fetish could work on one out of love but that's different from a rational business plan. Maybe the Facebook kid will build one. lol.



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09 Jun 2012, 4:54 pm

Actually, the discussion of lifting reactors to orbit was in the context of NERVA engines; fear of "nukes" is what keeps them from being used for SSTO (Single Stage To Orbit) craft, as the exhaust would be clean steam. (You would never want to vent the fluid inside the reactor - that's what keeps the reaction under control!)

The fuel for a reactor is indeed radioactive; that's why there were protestors outside the Kennedy Space Center when the Cassini mission was launched, and more panic a year later when it used Earth to slingshot toward Saturn. Out past Jupiter, there isn't enough solar power to run the systems on the Cassini probe, so it was equipped with a simple reactor fueled by a few kilos of plutonium. Had the rocket exploded on the pad, the vessel containing the plutonium would probably have been the only thing to survive intact - but to hear the protestors carrying on, you'd have thought the rocket were fueled with human blood, and the slingshot would summon the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse to begin the End Times.

And that's why we can't have NERVA craft, and why we probably won't even be able to field large-scale VASIMR thrusters until we can mine radioactives from asteroids or the Moon. Because, as Agent K observed, a person is smart, but people are dumb, ignorant, panicky animals, and you know it.


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11 Jun 2012, 3:08 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
I think this is all BS. In space there would be no electomagnetic field to prevent the harmful particles from the sun. The passengers could come back with cancer and sue the private space flight companies.


You don't think anyone makes space objects out of specific materials?



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11 Jun 2012, 3:16 pm

LiendaBalla wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
I think this is all BS. In space there would be no electomagnetic field to prevent the harmful particles from the sun. The passengers could come back with cancer and sue the private space flight companies.


You don't think anyone makes space objects out of specific materials?


Spacecraft outer shell materials range from reconstituted wooden boards (100% recycling!) to sheets of fiberglass duct taped together. Real Americans don't get cancer from radiation


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11 Jun 2012, 3:23 pm

ruveyn wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Yes, I said there was a market for launching rockets. The US now has several private launch companies.

But there is no market for space based reactors today. You'd have to hope that NASA (or DOD) would buy them.


What do we need space based reactors for. We have plenty of energy from the Sun. Us photovoltaics.

ruveyn


And how precisely do you intend to gather enough solar energy when you start moving farther away from the sun? There's quite a large flaw in your idea there.


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