Why do dark skinned males commit so much crime?

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When I was attending a university in Northern New York, something I'd long suspected was confirmed for me.

First off, they don't call it the "Great White North" for nothing.

Second, northerners talk a big blame game when it comes to southern racism. It's an easy talk because they don't actually live among the ethnic groups that they're taking up for. It's more often the few blacks that they encounter live among THEM and conform to their culture; heck, Yankees don't even NOTICE that their skin color is different.

Now...spend a few weeks in the Mississippi Delta where blacks are either in the majority or darned near close to it. If you patrol the more affluent neighborhoods, you'll see white and black families living side-by-side, and you even have the rare "mixed" family. It's very Great-White-North-ernesque.

But you also learn quickly where NOT to go. I live in Greenville, which at one point in time was a party-town for Mississippi's intellectual elite (artists, authors, etc.). It has sharply declined since the 1980s from what I understand, and black culture here is largely dominated by an urban hip-hop mentality--and there's NOTHING urban about the Delta.

So if you're new to Greenville, probably the first thing someone will tell you is stay away from Nelson Street. The only legit reason for being on Nelson is visit Doe's Eat Place, which is "where all the rich white people go for a steak dinner." I've never spent any time in the place, but I'll eat their tamales by the dozen. If you were to go there, you'd notice a police officer standing guard outside the place. People here will tell you to get in and get out before sunset. The rest of Nelson is inhabited by pimps, prostitutes, drug dealers, and various cliques that have taken up here. If you're white, you have no business out there.

I'm not saying that because I have something against blacks. I don't. But THEY have a lot against US, and they don't mind sending that message.

Now, if you want the positive side about racial mixing in the Delta, hang out in the bars. In Greenville, you have the Walnut Street district. The two big places over there are Spectators and The Blues Bar. It's not unusual to find diverse crowds in either. On the south end of town, closer to where I live (and mostly safer than the north side), you have Rivals, which is a newer place. Again, decently mixed crowd. It's not about being white or black, but just getting together and having a good time.

It's seeing things like that which remind me that the elements that make racial tension a reality here are really just illusions. White people don't kick blacks out of their gathering places or churches. The problem is that there ARE large numbers of black families that still carry all that resentment towards us and they pass those ideas on to their children. The negative attitudes you see coming from whites are mostly reactions to that. You'll never know what it's like living among those who hate you for your skin color unless you actually do it. I taught in "minority" schools for three years, and one huge hurdle I had to jump was that of being "that white teacher." Hatred towards us is so deeply ingrained into some elements of their culture that it is difficult to be white AND earn their respect and admiration. You won't have that same problem with those who are taught to love and respect EVERYONE. For those who are unwilling to give you that chance, you have to "play the game" to a degree until you can convince them you can be trusted. It can be done. But it's difficult to win over people whose minds are already made up about you before they even meet you.

If you're really interested in this kind of thing, you should also dig into some of the finer aspects of the culture. They don't just judge whites by skin color; they judge each other. Dark skin is the ultimate curse, whereas light skin is considered attractive. And then there's the hair thing; "mixed" kids have an advantage over their same-race peers, especially girls. You learn a lot around here!

^^^
That doesn't surprise me in the least. I used to have some pretty negative attitudes about white people in general, and rich people too, I didn't trust them simply because I only ever had very negative experiences with them growing up.

I had to put in a very dedicated effort to change those attitudes, and now they are neutral. But it takes a conscious and continuous effort to change something like that, which isn't something that the majority of us undertake.

If that's the case then that's funny, cause I never saw the white boys in their teens or real early twenties in the vicinity getting the same treatment that we did, even though they were in the same size groups and out at night too, just passing through like we were.



I never said they don't count, it's just that intellectualizing about it and living it are two totally different things. Of course you have the right to have an opinion.

I just could never imagine someone living it and then standing there and saying that.

That's the problem with the point Kjas is trying to make. After I provided statistics, comparison to other minorities that have prospered and a proper explanation for that, the story switched from "you are wrong about X" to "you can't be right about X unless you've personally experienced X". Indeed, that would make history obsolete. In a few years, we can't discuss the entire nineteenth century anymore. Which is good, as it's one less excuse for this situation.

Not at all, I was thinking it the entire time, I just didn't post about it.
It's not about completely intellectualizing a conversation on the topic, nor should we go completely from life experience in the world today, but from an even mixture of the two.

I just don't want to see one side (either side, for that matter) dismissed because nobody has brought it up.

I also haven't seen the sociology and psychology side of the debate brought into play here yet. Or economics for that matter. There are many things that have not been brought up yet on this subject.

As you were posting before about prison statistics, there were many things that contributed to that. One of them was the 3 strike rule which was introduced (and to my knowledge was also revoked - although I am not entirely sure on that point). I also know that crack cocaine was much more heavily penalized that it should have been compared to coke.

I did watch a rather interesting segment on Al Jazeera on the subject earlier in the year, which can be viewed here:

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestoryamericas/2012/01/20121318318540671.html

Here's the issue. We did talk economics - economically, other minorities have surpassed African-Americans by a wide margin within two generations. It wouldn't hurt them to abandon the central subcultural idea that they're victims of circumstance and prejudice. Of course they're not - most prejudice there is against them, as far as it's allowed to be expressed, is probably the result of a lot of them being involved in crime and being generally unproductive. I'm not too happy about the groups of black people living here if a majority of their young men have been held by police for serious crimes at some point.

Meanwhile, Asians had similar or worse starting points here, and they simply worked, went to school and succeeded. It's not all that hard, and it's not the fact that their ancestors were slaves over 150 years ago - most black people in the Netherlands arrived after 1945, especially after social security was introduced and expanded. It's quite the easy divide - on one hand, there were immigrants who went to school and worked hard. On the other hand, there were immigrants who managed to come here in the 1960s to complain about their distant ancestors having been slaves in Suriname and the Antilles and demanded money, being unproductive in general to this day.

Psychologically, there might be something playing - if I was completely uninformed statistically, I'd dismiss approximately 99% of them as criminals, as I've only met one black person who was genuinely involved in helping people, whereas all others were rather aggressive or downright criminal. My neighbours, for example, are rather violent and seem involved in organised drug-related crime.

Punishing the trade in some drugs more than others is something that makes a lot of sense to me. Crack cocaine is often poorly-treated regular cocaine with several even unhealthier substances added. It's much more dangerous, intense, possibly poisonous depending on the quality, and it's like the difference between providing a violent rebel group with Glock pistols and providing them with mortars and canisters of poison gas and sending them for a village. It's not an all-encompassing conspiracy to keep black people oppressed - after all, they aren't usually convicted for it if they haven't started dealing drugs in the first place.

You have to think that culture plays a large part in the problems seen in the black community. Thought that Thomas Sowell had a nice book addressing this issue, called Black Red Necks and White Liberals.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Rednecks-Li ... 1594030863

Additionally Professor Walter Williams has written a number of articles about the problem of violence in the black community, but also the problem seen concerning the lack of will to learn in school. One article of his that I recall was about when he was a student in the 40s and 50s, and while racism against blacks was rampant in society, black students then did well in school, wanted to learn and do well in society.

"Rising Black Social Pathology"

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/articles ... hology.htm

But you have no demonstration of your hypothesis, except for the prison population.

So let's look at a more fundamental statistic. Arrests. http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_43.html

How is it that 44% of the population admissions arise from only 28.3% of the arrests?

And time and again the statistics have demonstrated racial disparity in sentencing. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1985377

Longer sentences leads to greater numbers in the prison population (as opposed to admissions). While these factors do not paint the entire picture, they certainly present a picture with greater detail than your slapdash efforts.



But I'm not the one trying to make statistics stand for something that they don't. I don't expect statistics to demonstrate anything other than what they state. You're the one who is extrapolating from them.



Most assuredly they have. It was only in 2010 that Congress narrowed this gap in the federal jurisdiction. Powder cocaine possession triggers a felony charge with possession of 500g. Crack requires only 28g, up from the previous 5g. And since cocaine possession is overwhelmingly white, and crack possession merely majority white, the convictions fell dramatically onto the shoulders of black users of crack, rather than white users of cocaine.

And rest assured it is not mainly African Americans who traffick in illegal drugs. 65% of drug arrests in 2009 were white, 33% were black. Disproportionate, yes. But by no means supporting your use of the word, "mainly."



But the title of this thread is, "Why do dark skinned males commit so much crime?"

And no where has anyone presented anything like a reasonable argument that can demonstrate that crime statistics support this hypothesis.

(And on the subject of free legal counsel, have a look at the studies of the efficacy of public defenders. Whites have disproportionately higher acquittal rates in US courts because whites disproportionately hire private legal counsel. Where whites rely on public defenders, their conviction rates are similar to blacks.)



No, it is not hard at all to assume that the disproportionate prison population is due to a disproportionate rate of offending. You have demonstrated that it requires no intellectual effort, whatsoever.

I, on the other hand, choose to rely on research, evidence and the proper interpretation of those.

No, the sham voter fraud issues has nothing to do with causing racism, but it's certainly proof that it still exists.
And while there are doubtlessly more enlightened whites than there have ever been before who had put Obama in the White House, it's undeniable that many of those who oppose him are motivated by racial hate. The absurd birther fantasies, or accusations that the president is a secret Muslim, is proof of this. As are the racist caricatures appearing in right wind web sites and periodicals attacking Obama.
And if all this racism still lingers, then one has to concede that it will translate into denying people of color job and housing opportunities, keeping many of them as second class citizens. Hence, poverty.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I dont blame you and I myself am mostly White but Racism comes from everywhere because of racist whites I am automaticly assumed to be racist becaust I am white sometimes. I am not racist at all I dispise racism we are all human. It is bad enough I get treated like crap from other whites not only because I hang out with non whites but also am an aspie as well. I am so glad to be away from the south. Unfortunatly even north some racism still exists as well as prejudice but more over reverse racism.

Honestly, I agree with the things mentioned in the article 'A Minority View'. The situation portrayed in the article is something I recognise, and I have no doubt my father, who works at an inner-city school for young adults and adults, does too. What he's noted about his students - a great deal whom are dark-skinned - is that they're completely useless. They don't speak our language properly, they're certainly not able to speak English at a comprehensible level, and they can be very violent and rude. He has also noted that, as standards were lowered and the school became more tolerant of bad results, the depth and width of the knowledge provided decreased.

These people will never amount to anything if they're allowed to treat their teachers like houseservants and show their lack of respect in almost any way imaginable. And there's the core of the issue. When I wore a hat inside a building, I was immediately commanded to take it off. A while later, a young black man walked in wearing a cap, and a woman wearing a hijab, and nothing was said. Of course not - they seem to have discovered the golden rule to avoid prosecution: only do something that doesn't benefit the other party if the other party has the same skin colour as you, or you're a racist.

What I think needs to happen in order to reduce crime in young black males is simply to leave them to their own means. Prosecute them if they do something not in accordance with the law, give them the same, not more, opportunities in education, force them to adhere to the rules set for other students, don't take racism as an excuse for anything and cut their welfare. That's how you create the conditions in which other minorities throughout the western world prospered while African-Americans and Afro-Caribbeans were doing absolutely nothing to that end while being helped and focused on intensively.

To be honest, this statistic seems to be more of the same. They're still over-represented in a lot of crimes, even more so in a lot of serious crimes. For murder, it seems they are the largest group in terms of arrests. 12-13% of the population outnumbering 72% of the population in arrests for the worst of all crimes. That's another issue - the type of crime they're involved in is inherently violent. It seems African-Americans were a majority of robbers, and a near-majority of murderers. In all other types of crime except driving under influence and violation of liquor laws (surprisingly, as they are 'always the ones being pulled over'), they're disproportionately represented.

What's your explanation for that? Keep in mind, poverty didn't seem to keep Asians from being succesful relatively quickly. They form 4.8% of the population in the United States, and they're very under-represented in virtually all crimes. I'll ask again - is it really not a cultural issue if one minority is extremely under-represented and another is extremely over-represented? Keep in mind, one minority is the constant focus of aid programmes, while another was left to its own devices and succeeded on its own devices.

Blacks were left to their own devices for years and years prior to civil rights legislation. They got kicked in the teeth again and again.
And as I had stated in an earlier post, before blacks became the inner city population, it was the Irish, Italians, and Jews who lived there, where they had high drop out rates, formed violent ethnic gangs (the Italian Mafia of today is the direct descendent), and conservative critics claimed they were incapable of anything good - let alone speaking proper English. Today, their descendents are part of mainstream American society. The same can happen with black and Latino Americans.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

If everyone adopts the attitude you express from your father, per the useless nature of individuals based on their color, the problem you identify is going to continue to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Those that run your government understand this, and will continue to provide support and assistance as needed to ensure that things don't get worse.

In asking for welfare to be cut one is asking for anarchy. Prisons capacity is limited, and is only part of the answer for those that will break the laws, regardless of skin color, to survive if not afforded opportunities for subsistence.

Suicide rates among African Americans in the US are among the lowest among any demographic; part of their cultural beliefs are not to give up. Self esteem rates among black african males are studied at the highest among all other demographics.

I worked in a military environment where merit was based on achievement. Color and background means little to nothing in that environment, because it is based on merit of one's achievements and equal opportunities are provided. The gender barrier has been much more difficult to break in that environment.

Gang members who are light of color or dark of color are just as dangerous. Crime rates in Russia were extremely high with close to 50 percent of the population involved with organized crime after the countries social welfare system broke down, only recently making a change for the better. This issue of crime wasn't an issue of color it was an issue of disparity of economics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Russia



Part of the issue in northern european countries is with immigration of a newly arrived group that is econmically disadvantaged compared to others in these nations. However, per research linked below, immigration as compared to economic disadvantage in neighborhoods is not as great a predictor of crime in the US. Including crime associated with drugs.

http://www.sagepub.com/press/2012/april/SAGE_NeighborhoodsnotImmigrantsDeterminingFactorHomicides.sp



Family Wealth of African Americans is measured at 5% of that of the Caucasian demographic. Many reasons have been cited for this issue including the breakdown of manufacturing jobs in urban areas, where unions protected the rights of African American individuals in the workplace.

The economically diadvantaged are predisposed to be involved with illegal drug activity. The rise of incarceration of African American males, as well as all other demographics of males increased at a dramatic rate, after the war on drugs began in the 70's.

It's easy enough to make a judgement on this when one is sitting in a feathered nest. The environment one is born into makes a huge difference, regardless of the color of one's skin.

Racism is still evident in the US, and has been voiced at louder levels in right wing elements of the US, since the election of Obama. However, the hatred voiced in racism is seen at similar levels of the mid 20th century US, voiced in Northern European countries now seeing their homogenous populations move into the heterogenity that is common in most other western nations.

While discrimination and prejudice still exist in the US, there is no longer the degree of the fear of whites in society that once was a predominant element in the everyday life of many African Americans. In fact, there is a caucasian element that seeks to be part of the African American Culture, in part because the African American Culture has an identified culture, as opposed to many caucasians that feel disenfranchised from belonging to a culture that can be identified.

As mentioned in another post these trends of crime and subcultures ebb and flow through history depending upon socio-cultural factors, particulary economic disparity.

In a world of immigration and/or heterogenity one will observe and potentially experience conflicts related to differing subcultures; that's just the way humans and society works. If one attempts to fight it with disdain for entire demographics, there is little potential for a constructive solution.

Taking away subsistence benefits from part of the population could make the difference between a real criminal breaking into one's home, to feed their children or whatever it is that feeds their existence, for another day. Color has nothing to do with it. People will do what it takes to survive, whether it is feeding a drug habit, or feeding themselves. If that were not the case one would not have seen the levels of crime in Russia after social welfare benefits were removed from a pre-dominant demographic of light skinned individuals. Some people made the decision to turn to crime rather than to starve to death. The economy in that country started progressing after the turn of the new century and crime rates went down as well.

Diagnosed with an Autism Spectrum Disorder, or any other potentially disabling disorder, there is a high statistical probability, that one at some point in their life is going to need subsistence assistance from the government.

If that option is taken away from those that need it now, it may not be available in the future, if one's time of need comes. It's might not be likely that one would turn to a life of crime, but the alternative could potentially be starving to death if one cannot find employment, family, or friends, and the government takes away the safety net.

Everyone is subject to the potential of becoming disabled, and/or meeting misfortune in life; no one is immune from that potential on any given day. If one lives in a country with a safety net large enough to capture the majority of these issues, one is much more fortunate than many whom live in other countries, where no safety net exists. Harder for some to understand until they live several decades with the responsibility of a job, a mortgage, and supporting a family. Life can be very capricious. People that are not born into feathered nests, understand this more clearly. It's a different world for them. Some are amazingly resilient and overcome barriers and some fall to the misfortunes of life.

When it comes to the culture, I can tell you first hand why these kids have no respect for school or education.

They see it as pointless, as it has no relevance to them or to the lives they live. What's the point of reading Jane Erye to a young brother in the hood when his mama is out working 12 hour shifts and he's taking care of his two younger siblings? Not to mention he won't have a lot of time to do homework.

Even on the assumption he gets to graduation and passes, what is he gonna do then? College is out of the question unless he has well off parents or unless they happen to own their own house, which they can use as collateral to finance a student loan. Otherwise, college really isn't an option for these kids. Even if they worked multiple jobs (3 or 4), they would still have enormous difficultly paying their way through as well as keeping up their marks, and if they can't keep up their marks then they are going to be kicked out anyway. Not to mention, his mama might expect him to get a job straight out of school in order to help out at home because if finances are tight, that's exactly what they're going to to.

Now compare this to what he sees his friend of the same age doing, in a gang and running and dealing. His friend makes 500 a week easy, if not substantially more depending on where he is in the hierarchy. Considering a lot of the time their other option is to go into a service industry like hospitality where they're going to make $3 an hour plus tips.

Those who do get involved with gangs often get initiated at 13-17, and once you're in there's no getting out, it's usually a lifelong thing.

He's not thinking about the reality of it, he doesn't picture him being out on the corner at 4am in the morning dealing until another gang comes along and shoots up the place. All he's thinking about is "I can get me some money", and of course, those working regular low wage jobs look like suckers to him in comparison.

Not to mention he probably has an uncle, or others he has seen in the gang lifestyle growing up. In comparison he sees his mother, who has worked her entire life at low wage jobs and has got absolutely nowhere and is still barely scraping by.

It's a very short sighted decision that changes their lives, and they don't consider the long term ramifications of it at all. This way of thinking is a product of both environment and culture, and a self reinforcing one at that.

Huh? There are such things as PELL grants that allow low income kids to go to college.
That's how I went to school.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

on a slightly different tack, i wonder- if you took a group of people composed of various races, equalized in numbers and [middle and upper] social class, and did a longitudinal study of them, i wonder what percentages of each race/class would eventually be found to have engaged in WHITE-collar crime?

But if the large majority of them see school as pointless in the first place, and therefore do not bother to study or can't even manage to pass or just don't take it seriously in general, they're not going to be eligible for those types of things are they?

The lack of respect towards education (which was one of my main points with the above) can have far reaching consequences.