Are the Muslims really the biggest threat . . .

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04 Sep 2012, 5:24 pm

thomas81 wrote:

More innocent people are dying as a result of America and Britains prolonged occupation of other countries, than in the history of islamic terrorism put together.

I'm sure the Taliban weep every day at their deaths.

I don't agree with the UK being in Afghanistan or Iraq. The UK should defend its sovereign territory and no more.

thomas81
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04 Sep 2012, 5:27 pm

Tequila wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Even if we're talking in terms of violent islam, it still gets disproportionately unfair debate.

No-one wants to talk about decent people of any race, creed or colour. They're boring. Most Muslims are peaceable people who just want to get on with their lives. Good for them. The man who runs the newsagent where my mum buys her newspaper from has far better smelling curry than the local curry houses.

You say that as if to infer that non-islamic people are only constituted of decent people.

If anything, with the death of Bin Laden I'd say that Al Quaeda are a spent force. In America I think they have more to worry about from survivalist christian nutjobs like Timothy McVeigh and Anders Brevik.

TM
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04 Sep 2012, 5:27 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Even if we're talking in terms of violent islam, it still gets disproportionately unfair amounts of debate.

More innocent people are dying as a result of America and Britains prolonged occupation of other countries, than in the history of islamic terrorism put together.

Why is ideologically grounded violence in the interests of the status quo so acceptable?

I suppose you're speaking of Iraq and Afghanistan but those countries would more or less be in a worse state without the occupation. It's not like sectarian violence got imported by the British and Americans to these places. Afghanistan has been a warlords den since before the Russians invaded it, and Iraq was only relatively free of sectarian violence for a long period of time because Saddam said "f**k it, instead of you killing each other, I'll just kill all of you and cut out the middlemen"

Also, in terms of recruitment, to use reductio ad absurdum, most North Koreans have never seen an American, yet hate them and are easily recruited into the North Korean armed forces.

thomas81 wrote:

[
You say that as if to infer that non-islamic people are only constituted of decent people.

If anything, with the death of Bin Laden I'd say that Al Quaeda are a spent force. In America I think they have more to worry about from survivalist christian nutjobs like Timothy McVeigh and Anders Brevik.

Well, Behring Breivik and McVeigh are in essence the exact same as the violent Muslims. Both on a methodological level and a psychological level. Al Quaeda was dead and buried before Bin Laden, but they were always kind of a minor player compared to the Hizbollah or Hamas.

Last edited by TM on 04 Sep 2012, 5:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

The_Walrus
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04 Sep 2012, 5:28 pm

Tequila wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Invasions are normally dealt with by killing or scaring away the invading army.

Or by integrating the invading army (the Ummah).

Nice bit of pork curry and a crate of strong golden ale anyone?

To be fair, that is exactly what is happening in the UK and the government isn't stopping it.

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04 Sep 2012, 5:28 pm

thomas81 wrote:

You say that as if to infer that non-islamic people are only constituted of decent people.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

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04 Sep 2012, 5:29 pm

Tequila wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

More innocent people are dying as a result of America and Britains prolonged occupation of other countries, than in the history of islamic terrorism put together.

I'm sure the Taliban weep every day at their deaths.

I don't agree with the UK being in Afghanistan or Iraq. The UK should defend its sovereign territory and no more.

I don't think they do weep the deaths. I think Taliban want the British and Americans to stay, because they know that the longer the stalemate continues the more that muslim animosity against the west will rise. It helps their recruitment. The same rationale why the IRA welcomed the bloody sunday massacre in 1972.

The best thing we can do is cut our losses and bring our troops home while the Taliban are relatively weak.

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04 Sep 2012, 5:31 pm

Libertarian? Ugh. But a UKIP Libertarian? Ugh x10 to the power of afuckofalot.

Whenever I see the Union Flag, I think of dogshit. Growing up, the flag was incredibly intertwined with the NF, who had a habit of setting fire to a bag of dogshit outside the local Sikh-owned paper shop. It's a reflex association that's served me well politically, but it's not pleasant given my literal-mental-image thing.

Still, that 'white' remark says it all. Your castigating of Islam can come under the cover of fervent secularism, or somesuch, - keep repeating, 'it's only a religion, it's only a religion...' - but it cannot help but be racialised in your mind.

TM wrote:

250.000 lives are price well worth paying for the future of the Iraqi people .... you would argue with me in the Marxism thread about the suffering and deaths caused by capitalism, without regard for the many, many people who have reaped benefits of it. Also, I'm not sure if you trying to argue with me on this has a point, because you can't refute truth.

Not just worth paying, but well worth paying. Wow.

As we've previously noted, the 'benefits' of capitalism that most consider to be linked come at great protestation of the capitalist class. Unfettered capitalism = feudalism.

ETA: OT but not really - I recall the downfall of some Islamic dictator, and the TV showing a crowd taking off their shoes and hitting a portrait of said dictator (fairly recent - Mubarak, maybe) - and the VO intoned that this was 'a sign of great disrespect' - I'm thinking, 'funny, cos it's very respectful to do that here'.

Last edited by Hopper on 04 Sep 2012, 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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04 Sep 2012, 5:33 pm

Hopper wrote:

Whenever I see the Union Flag, I think of dogshit.

Luckily, I can rise above the temptation to make inflammatory statements about people's national flags.

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04 Sep 2012, 5:36 pm

Tequila wrote:

Hopper wrote:

Whenever I see the Union Flag, I think of dogshit.

Luckily, I can rise above the temptation to make inflammatory statements about people's national flags.

Perhaps you should blame the racist extremists who served to propogate this image in his mind. It was they that tarnished his view of your beloved rag, not him.

I for one have analogous views of the same emblem, being used in the harrassment and intimidation of disposessed Roman Catholic communities at the hands of the Loyal Orange Lodge.

Last edited by thomas81 on 04 Sep 2012, 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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04 Sep 2012, 5:37 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Perhaps you should blame the racist extremists who served to propogate this image in his mind. It was they that tarnished his view of your beloved rag, not him.

Want me to say stuff about your IRA rag as well then?

See, everyone can make offensive statements about flags.

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04 Sep 2012, 5:39 pm

Tequila wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Perhaps you should blame the racist extremists who served to propogate this image in his mind. It was they that tarnished his view of your beloved rag, not him.

Want me to say stuff about your IRA rag as well then?

See, everyone can make offensive statements about flags.

It might shock and astonish you to learn that I don't hail from an Irish nationalist background.

I draw much of my social inspiration from the Ulster protestant born poet, Louis MacNeice.

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04 Sep 2012, 5:40 pm

thomas81 wrote:

It might shock and astonish you to learn that I don't hail from an Irish nationalist background.

I knew that already.

That your flag then? I'd change it if I were you - looks a bit Ivorian to me.

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04 Sep 2012, 5:41 pm

Tequila wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

It might shock and astonish you to learn that I don't hail from an Irish nationalist background.

I knew that already.

That your flag then? I'd change it if I were you - looks a bit Ivorian to me.

What flag?

Hopper
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04 Sep 2012, 5:41 pm

Tequila wrote:

Hopper wrote:

Whenever I see the Union Flag, I think of dogshit.

Luckily, I can rise above the temptation to make inflammatory statements about people's national flags.

But not their religions? It's a f*****g FLAG, ffs. I'm not sure it should matter, but being a Briton, it's my flag, too.

The_Walrus
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04 Sep 2012, 5:42 pm

I hate the way some extremists have tried to "reclaim" the Union Flag and St George's Cross. They should simply be symbols of the countries they represent, not used to further sick ideologies. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the flag.

Having said that, I don't particularly like the design of the Union Flag (St Patrick's Cross is done badly, and there's no representation of Wales), but that's a separate issue.

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04 Sep 2012, 5:44 pm

thomas81 wrote:

What flag?

Perhaps they stole it.

Hopper wrote:

But not their religions? It's a f***ing FLAG, ffs. I'm not sure it should matter, but being a Briton, it's my flag, too.

Worship your God if you like, just don't bring me into it, don't demand entrance to this country if you're not a national (though really this is the government's fault), don't commit crimes in the name of it (again the government's fault for not applying the law fairly) and don't ask for special treatment. Not much to ask.

You happy about not being included on it separately?

Last edited by Tequila on 04 Sep 2012, 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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