Angry Muslims

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No thank you.

I've become more left wing as I've got older. I'm not one to tolerate intolerance, though. I've become more outspoken against Islam as I've become more feminist. I am actually disgusted with the likes of the Liberal Democrat party. They are totally, utterly spineless.

I've always been more of an old-school, working class Labour type rather than being on the student left. I didn't like the student left even when I was a student. I am more left wing than my parents, so it is only a partly-inherited thing. I am pretty disillusioned with the Labour party and 'democracy' in this country - as is pretty much everyone else from my walk of life.

Anyway, given how left wing I am, is it surprising that I agree with a lot of what Tequila says about Islam? A lot of other left wingers from my class would agree with him, too. These are people who the student left would probably call bigots, or whatever, but only a small minority are actually bigoted. I am not going to deny that some working class white people* in the UK are bigoted. I'm a very honest person.

You could say, 'ha, now you know how the ordinary Muslim feels about people generalising their opinions', but it's not the same. 'Working class white people' aren't an ideology with a set text. I do get that it must be horribly frustrating for Muslims to be associated with extremists, but they need to think critically about their religion and how it relates to the modern world. Normal, non-extremist Muslims are not powerless pawns beholden to their leaders to make their minds up about all important issues. They need to stop letting scholars do all their theology for them. They need a Reformation, but I don't know if that's possible within framework of their religion. I suspect Islam can't reform that much. The only thing that I think will work is a top-down commitment to secularism, like with Ataturk. I don't mean forcing people to accept it in their lives, but generally governments being committed to keeping religion separate from state. I think this is the only thing that would work because Muslims are so used to everything coming 'from above'.

* EDIT: just thought I'd add that a lot working class people who are not Muslim have opinions on Islam that would upset elements of the far-left in this country - not just white people, but people from all ethnicities. Actually, thinking about it - one thing that immigration from Muslim countries has done is lessen tensions between white working class people and Afro-Caribbean people. The same is true for non-Muslim Indians, when people can tell the difference (some people are still pretty ignorant, but those who socialise with different races are generally amiable towards Sikhs and Hindus). Of course treating someone different because of their ethnicity is very wrong and in my day-to-day life, I don't do it. I think a lot of people sense a bit of hostility that is put up by the religious doctrine. I don't know if it's paranoia, but I get these sense that large sections of the population look down on me as a soul lost to hell. This applies to both Christians and Muslims, but the Muslims know straight away from looking at me that I'm not one of them, that I'm on the road to hell, in their eyes. Not all of them take their religion so seriously as to see lost souls wandering around everywhere, but I think some of them do.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMFblSRP82o&feature=relmfu[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h_RaXdvlTY&feature=related[/youtube]

I'm not a defender of Islam by any stretch, but the problem in my mind with the rhetoric used by Tequila and those like him is that a lot of it resonates with the same 'singling out' and finger pointing used by anti semites around the first half of the 20th century. It is especially dangerous, considering many of the indigenous populace find it palatable and there are figures in the background who want to hijack this very rhetoric for their own insidious purposes.



True, and anti Irish racism or prejudice against 'white' immigrants is virtually unheard of now.

In that context it shows if anything, how asinine, arbitrary and stupid islamophobia is. Todays pariah will be tomorrows accepted neighbour.

There are people who want to use legitimate criticism of Islam for racist purposes, but that's not Tequila's fault or even Pat Condell's. You have to take their arguments as they are, rather than bringing in whatever unsavoury things you associate them with. Not differentiating the likes of Condell from the likes of Nick Griffin, I would argue, is counter productive to having a reasonable debate. Intellectually, you need to treat religious groups like adults, or they won't engage in an adult way. I don't personally think Condell's style is appropriate, but I think it is a response to people on both the left and the right trying to shut down this debate. The reason he's shouting is because some people have their fingers in their ears.

I get what you're saying and there is a danger of scapegoating Muslim people, but I don't think ignoring the issues raised by the shouty libertarian Internet people is the way to stop this happening. Condell gets off on people calling him an Islamophobe and telling him to STFU. If you respond with 'yes, you make some good points, but you need to calm down a bit because...', then I think that's more effective. We needn't make enemies of these people. We should focus on real racists (some of whom write for the tabloid press, so I don't just mean the BNP).

You can tell a man by his passions. There is a certain tone some take against Muslims that isn't really matched by their other outcries, as though they're just going through the motions so as to not appear (quite so) bigoted.

- I find the language here fascinating. Speaking of, uh, free speech:



http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/09/2 ... 9G20120921

There is a problem with Islamic extremists. And, by the way, adding 'but we're not allowed/supposed to say it' is nonsense, a rhetorical/ideological touch designed to make the speaker look like they're not afraid to (ugh) 'tell it like it is'. It is British Intelligence, Domestic and Foreign policy that there is a problem with Islamic extremists. The 'problem' is regularly reported, discussed and opined upon throughout the media. Not always accurately or helpfully:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_CKEgO3Fm4[/youtube]

But yes, Islamic extremism is a problem. As far as the UK goes, I don't think it's much of a problem. Within other countries - dictatorships, theocracies, etc - it is a problem for the people there. But given NATO are not the armed wing of Amnesty International, there is a limit to what can be done.

The biggest problem the UK faces right now is the government, and Capitalism. I disagree with a lot of what they say, and certainly their approach, but I can see where the likes of Mr Condell and Tequila are coming from. What I don't get is how Islamic extremism or the threat to Secularism can take up the majority of their ire. I'd wager the life of the average UK citizen is more at risk from hospital closures, or an attack on health and safety practises, than some angry, hateful young Islamists.

Since the UKIP party ideologically orientates itself towards lassez faire economics and the gravitation of wealth towards the elite, it would not be politically expedient for them to oppose capitalism or the encroachment of the private sector into the public health service. Therefore the only remaining target for their ire is islamic extremism, and wherever theres some available, other miscellaneous immigrants and those 'meddling lefties'.

Of course I'm stating a foregone conclusion, but i thought i'd say it anyway.

I really don't understand the pathological make up of a Randroid, pro-capitalist or right winger. There must be some sociopathic tendencies at play. Either that some damn sheltered cultural conditioning.

Or ironically, the anti-Semitic rhetoric used by the very groups you defend.

Muslim fanatics are the leading Jew Haters of the world. "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" translated into Arabic is a best seller in the Muslim world.

ruveyn

Which anti semetic groups do I 'defend'?

If you are going to accuse me of protecting anti semites, at least have the courage to give examples.

Am sorry, And I know this is a post from the second page but seriously? Who the hell are the Brits for moaning about Terrorism and "Invading". 30 years your Army occupied and terrorised Northern Ireland and called us Terrorists for wanting Freedom, And fighting in a Civil war your Army caused by supporting Loyalist Extremists in killing Catholics, Forcing us to take up arms and fight back.

Yet now you moan about Muslims causing Trouble, Yet at the same god damn time When people fight for freedom in Libya their Freedom fighters because it's against Gadafi? not the UK.

The English have absolutely no right to claim other Ethic groups are invading england and destroying the culture when they are responsable for the decline of Gaelic Culture in the British Isles.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lef20AWwCjc[/youtube]

Your response to the cartoons I posted - featuring grotesque caricatures of Israelis as horrible looking religious Jews with big noses (a classic anti-Semitic propaganda trait)), the appearance in at least two of the cartoons of a reference to the blood libel (where Jews are alleged to drink the blood of their enemies), your complete silence when I mentioned the Hamas Charter, which specifically enshrines their desire to kill Jews - not Israeli government targets, Jews. It's about Jews with these people. They don't like Israel because millions of Jews live there and Jews have settled in the Islamic House of Peace.

Now, Israel and Jews simply ignore these cartoons and highlight them as much as possible. They understand that, unfortunately, this is simply a part of life in living in a part of the world where all their neighbours hate them and want them dead. They don't go around killing innocent civilians over some pissy fit like Muslim savages do.

Here's just two out of thousands - they usually appear in the Arab press, unsubtitled for an English audience, and this is something the Arabs themselves are keen stays that way:

The two cartoons refer to the Jewish blood libel, where Jews in various points of history are alleged to drink the blood of other people. The blood libel originated in Christian countries in Europe and then spread from there to, amongst other places, Russia and the Middle East. These antisemitic canards have been debunked for centuries and it's amazing how a rational person could still believe this, but they relentlessly carry on in the simple-minded bigotry of the Arab world.



Context: Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is shown drinking from a goblet labeled “The Palestinian Children’s Blood.”



Context: Blood-drinking Jews are frequently portrayed in the Arab media. Shown here is one published in the Egyptian paper, Al Ahram in April 2001, showing an Arab placed into a flattening mill by two Israeli soldiers. Arab blood pours out & two Jews drink the blood laughingly.

These cartoons are printed all the time in Arab newspapers. Anything that could even be remotely to do with Israel, and there they are printing their hateful bile.

Want to watch some Palestinian television? Here you go:

Here's what children have to say about Christians and Jews on Palestinian TV - or "the descendants of apes and pigs" as they often call them in the Arab world:

Here's a children's TV show on the official Palestinian television network:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq2P4e1acXM[/youtube]

And another one - "Zion" is Satan with a tail. This is broadcast to children in the Palestinian Authority:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvWABooXDEE[/youtube]

Want to hear what the Palestinians think about the rain in Jerusalem?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffRUqw_G23I[/youtube]

Or do you want to watch another video on official Palestinian TV, where they deny the Jewish history at Jerusalem and call Jewish praying at the "Wailing Wall" (Judaism's most holy site) as "sin and filth":

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkt_L7QHxiY[/youtube]

Fancy watching how dissenters are treated on Palestinian TV when normal, everyday Palestinians criticise their leadership for not providing them with jobs, food, water and so on - i.e. the necesssities of daily life? First they blame it on "the Jews", then they cut off the sound to silence him even as more and more people rally to his support:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX1zBAIA3bQ[/youtube]

My point is that Israel and Jews are considered one and the same thing by many in "Palestine". They have become conflated. They dream of the day when they can obliterate Israel.

There's nothing wrong with balanced criticism of Israel's actions as a democratic country. Nothing wrong with that at all. But that isn't what much of the coverage of Israel is. Problem is, a lot of the people criticising Israel for human rights violations are Muslim countries with far more barbaric systems of governance than Israel.

But doing as the Guardian does - i.e. using every single thing that Israel ever does to have a pop at them without keeping a sense of proportion and without taking into account Israel's genuinely democratic and liberal nature compared to most of the Middle East, or supporting terrorist murderers, or like many people say that Israel doesn't have a right to exist (would you say that about any other country?), and considering the fact that Jews have nearly been wiped out altogether in Europe and that the Jews have been persecuted since near time immemorial doesn't lead them to give any faith.

The Israelis stance is simple: When people say they want to kill you, believe them! A lot of European Jews didn't believe the Nazis would have been so evil, and they perished as a result.

I agree that Israel is in the wrong place and this would definitely hold more weight if this was an argument over a secular country. They are surrounded by countries that want them to cease to exist. Numerous Aeab countries attacked Israel in 1967, thinking that with their combined might that Israel would fall easily. Israel, though, seeing what would happen to them if they failed (and with the Holocaust still well within living memory; with Holocaust survivors an integral part of Israeli life) defeated them all decisively.

And yet all this hate is still going on. If the Palestinians stopped trying to kill Israelis all the time, they would get a state.

That's not true now, is it? Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom and has been since 1921 and the British Army were sent there to restore order - to protect Catholics from loyalists.



"Freedom" at the point of a gun? You want to murder, butcher, maim and terrorise people into your version of "freedom"? It didn't work. Northern Ireland is still in the UK.

That's because bombing town centres, burning pensioners alive in restaurants, massacring everyday people going to church, massacring people on their way to work, bombing people remembering their war dead, the murdering of off-duty coppers and army people, the killing of children and so on. Terrorists is what these people were. They wanted to terrorise people into giving them their UI.

And the same applies to those 'Loyalist' vermin too. The security forces, in general, did an excellent job considering what they had to put up with. Can you imagine, say, other country's armies being as restrained.



Proof of this on a wide scale, please.

I've no doubt that there were people in the police and the Army that helped loyalist paramilitaries. Most people didn't. So you can't say that an entire organisation did if some members of it did break the law and assist loyalists. Given the nature of Northern Ireland and the Troubles, this probably isn't surprising. Lots of nationalists were sympathetic to terrorism as well. No side really comes away clean in it.



You mean bombing English cities and murdering children, don't you.



Gaddafi bankrolled the IRA, you know. I thought you'd be more likely to defend him, given your comments.



A - Can you actually speak Irish? A lot of the people who make the biggest noise about the Irish language and how it must be preserved and all that are people who can't speak it themselves and have no desire to. Irish is a wonderful language, but republicans need to leave the language alone.

B - The IFS/ROI didn't exactly do much of a job with Irish either, forcing it on an unwilling population.

C - Why are British people alive today responsible for what their leaders did in the distant past - centuries ago? An awful lot of people in Britain don't support the Iraq War, yet people seem to conflate the people and the government.

D - You love Ireland so much you live in Britain.

Northern Ireland became part of the United Kingdom because the UK threatened to send tanks into Ireland to put down in the uprising, Our politians sold out and signed the peace treaty.



We had no choice but to attempt to take our freedom at the point of a Gun, at that time Irish people had less rights than the English. Both Catholics and Prodistants took to the streets in civil right marches. In the end how did we get our Rights? Negotiations by the IRA.

Every single bombing by the P.I.R.A had a warning before hand so the goverment could evactuate, for the most part they did. But they did ignore the warnings on occasions to cause political damage and support against the IRA.

As for the Loyalists, They were fed Information by the RUC on where to find suppected IRA members to kill, They killed Civilians on a larger scale than the IRA and the British army, They had access to Police road blocks and Uniforms, This I know for a fact as they killed my Uncle and his dad at one.

As for the Armys restraint? Bloody Sunday.

And if you think it's over a done with your just a media fed idoit.

Every time I go back to Ireland I hear of Bomb plots and raids, Police battering people. I'll give you an example of how bigoted the Police are in NI.

Out of the blue a couple of bins appeared on the middle of the road in our Neighbour hood((It was a close knit strongly Catholic area. Every one knew everything)), No one knew how they got there but before we could move them PSNI land rovers appeared and sealed off the -Entire- area, Even the Hills on the other side of the community. Claiming the Bins were bombs they began to raid the majority of the Houses regardless of who lived there. They failed to find anything, Next thing a couple of them started to insult and provoke some known Ex-Provo's. Before you know it. Bam full scale riot with Petrol bombs being thrown, Water cannons and plastic bullets were called in, I personly witnessed 14 year olds get Baton'd. Hell I was almost hit by a Landrover myself.
Why? Because the police couldn't find a reason to arrest a couple of suspects in their investgation, so they provoked a Riot after sealing off the Area and used that as an excuse to arrest at will.

That was the week before I moved out of NI, I can name you loads of occasions where the police have descrimated against Catholics, In our own bloody Country.

My point was in my other post. The Brits have no Right to moan about other countrys. There's a reason the Union Jack is known as the butchers apron.

Thank goodness. Finally someone other than Joker to stand up for the Irish.

And with something a bit more solid than wailing and gnashing of teeth about patriotism.