Where the GOP goes from here
The GOP needs to make fiscal responsibility the centerpiece of it's platform and phase out it's archaic stance on social issues.
It destroys the male-female bias.
Gay marriage aside, I think the GOP should make outreaches on every front. Scholarships for gay teens, promoting gays in the armed forces, having gay CEO's and people of high authority speak at GOP sponsored events to inspire the next generation of Americans, supporting the "It gets better" movement starring gay republicans, and defeating the anti-gay sentiment of the Christian right. Our values are what unite the various factions of the GOP, not our sexuality.
Then.... and ONLY then... will the Gay see that they are treated as an equal. If they are treated as an equal, marriage is just cosmetic, its of no big deal to the 90% of gay couples who have lived together for most of their lives. Making them feel as the equals they are is the challenge. They are hedging all of their bets on marriage as the way to achieve that, I think there are less destructive ways and we can give them their own form of marriage if they really really want that.
It's not just cosmetic, to gays or anyone else; here in California, gays can get 'domestic partnerships' that give them all of the state rights of a marriage -and the conservatives still went apeshit when they actually started getting "married," and put an initiative on the ballot to change the state constitution. They lied so much about what gay marriage would mean, and there was so much money poured in from the Mormon church, that it passed.
The real problem conservatives have with gay marriage, as indicated above, is that it's a marriage with two equals; there's no division of labor or heirarchy possible along traditionalist lines. To a lot of Christians, marriage = man>woman>kids>pets, and if you start getting marriages of man=man, or woman=woman, or (heaven forbid) man=woman, everything goes to hell in a handbasket.
Romney and Ryan were apparently also totally shell-shocked, which I find shocking. They believed their own bs and their own polling systems to the exclusion of the outside world and known reliable methods. I just assumed they knew better. But the larger problem is the echo chamber that drives the bs to the base.
How are democrats any less reality-challenged when they think you can spend your way out of debt and that you can make jobs by taxing job creators into bankruptcy? I'm quite well aware that Republicans are full of sh** on many issues but what in god's name led you to believe that re-electing Obama was going to fix anything? When your hire a guy to fix your house and he's burns the place down, it's generally not considered a good idea to hire him a second time.
I honestly cannot, on any logical level, understand why you or anyone else would vote for someone as f***ing incompetent as Barack Obama. We're not four days out from his being re-elected and he's already pitching the same BS as before.
^case in point...
1)why is it less logical to 'spend your way out of debt' (which is not what the Dems are advocating) than it is to 'cut your income to get out of debt'?
2)who set the economy on fire? And who started to rebuild it?
There are advantages of being a part of the "Reality-Based Community,*" and one of them is that reality occasionally bites back.
*************
Now, for something constructive: I agree with those who say that the future of the Republican party/Right wing is in libertarianism, or at least that's where I hope it will go; as bad as having only two main parties is, it will inevitably get worse if there is ever only one main party. We need a strong right wing just like we need a strong left wing. If only the Libertarianists would extend their libertarianism to include women's health care privacy (Ron Paul is pro-life) and racial equality (he also has a pretty nasty record of racism), they would be a force to be reckoned with.
*a term coined for liberals by a conservative staffer of the Bush administration, btw.
techstepgenr8tion
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They need to make their case for smaller government and economic conservatism to the people and *most importantly* stop laying down while they get slandered.....and slandered...and slandered...... this election was great evidence that when you repeat something, no matter how demagogic or farse, it becomes not only a cultural tautology but bears then the full weight and benefit of group think and social conformity.
In extract - they need to clear the air that they're NOT the party of anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-freedom, anti-black, anti-hispanic, pretty much anti-everything except for white, rich, male, and protestant. Unfortunatly, as late in the game as it is, I have a feeling we'll be down to a one party system within 20 years time (Democrat) and if something else emerges it'll likely be both worse than either party we have now AND gravitate even more grown children of all stripes. That new party could very well be the American brown-shirts that everyone is worried about seeing surface.
MarketAndChurch
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yes! Even if you think something is absurd that it doesn't need answering, some people don't know any better so everything needs a response. Silence is agreement. Be it that we don't care about Children, or that we want to control women's vaginas by not giving them free subsidized contraceptives.
Furthermore, the left wins when it is able to mock the right and frame them in whatever way it does in a demeaning way. They win if normal people think we are racist, sexist, xenophobic, islamophobic, intolerant, bigoted, zealots, polluters, or whatever epithet you want to ascribe to those you disagree with to judge their intentions.
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techstepgenr8tion
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MarketAndChurch
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The Krauthammers, Ross Douthats, Jonah Goldbergs, Walter Russel Mead's, Robert Samuelsons, David Brooks, Dennis Pragers, and Robert Kagan's are all drowned out by the citations of Glenn Beck, and Rush Limbaugh.
We are the party of Limbaugh they say. They assign to us the lowest possible degrading member of our side as paradigmatic of conservative thought so that the common man will not take us seriously and hear the very best arguments we have to offer. My principle is to always entertain the very best of the oppositions line of thought, and assume the most beautiful of intentions, but it seems that it is a one way effort.
They sometimes have no answer when we provide clear lucid thought, so they mock. They make fun. They degrade. They assign every possible bad intention to us. It is a difficult battle, even for the Krauthammers because they are in a controlled environment, the five star generals on the Left would not be as friendly as a televised talk-show circuit if it were a public form or a university campus debate.
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Romney and Ryan were apparently also totally shell-shocked, which I find shocking. They believed their own bs and their own polling systems to the exclusion of the outside world and known reliable methods. I just assumed they knew better. But the larger problem is the echo chamber that drives the bs to the base.
How are democrats any less reality-challenged when they think you can spend your way out of debt and that you can make jobs by taxing job creators into bankruptcy? I'm quite well aware that Republicans are full of sh** on many issues but what in god's name led you to believe that re-electing Obama was going to fix anything? When your hire a guy to fix your house and he's burns the place down, it's generally not considered a good idea to hire him a second time.
I honestly cannot, on any logical level, understand why you or anyone else would vote for someone as f***ing incompetent as Barack Obama. We're not four days out from his being re-elected and he's already pitching the same BS as before.
And Republicans have the delusion that we can get out of debt by cutting taxes on the wealthy and increasing military spending. "taxing job creators into bankruptcy" is a bunch of moronic hyperbole considering Obama has not raised taxes even once as of yet. It's also beyond idiotic to ignore the fact that the "job creators" were doing just fine in the 1990's, well before the Bush tax cuts. Hell, they were doing fine in the 50s and 60s when taxes were much higher.
I'd also point out that comparing government debt to something like a household debt is the argument of a simpleton. Japan has a debt that is 200% of it's GDP, over twice the size of that of the US, yet there is no "bankruptcy" or hyperinflation in Japan. Also, private debt-to-GDP peaked at nearly 300% in 2007. That figure is the one to be more concerned with IMO
techstepgenr8tion
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The even bigger problem though, and this is where I kind of tend fatalistic about this - you can't force people to not be mentally lazy. If we're essentially Rome before the fall, a bread and circus society, and both intelligent conservatives AND liberals are overrun and greatly outnumbered by hordes of grown children who have no idea who it is they're voting for or against aside from the archetypes that their own personal fantasies project onto that person - we're essentially trying to stand in the way of a bellicose and flabby society and the lesson it needs to learn and trying to do so to stem our own grief over what we know will come. The trouble with that - I don't think history will find our own convenience and ease of life as important as teaching spoiled generations the lessons they need to learn, or for that matter teaching the western world that it can't lean on the US for military support forever.
A business owner with more money is going to make more capital investment in order to grow and increase profitability. This is exactly what creates jobs. It's also the most effective means of increasing tax revenue long term, since it's real job creation rather than job reallocation.
Yes, I know this argument. That was the presupposition I was talking about. There is not only one thing that a business owner can do with more money. Free will being what it is, there are alternatives.
He can invest it overseas where wages and income are still going up. That's the only logical thing to do en-mass when increasing profitability off of the consumption of the income starved American middle class is essentially a zero-sum game.
OK, I will give that a try. Everyone is wrong.
First off you have two parties, both selling Free Lunch. There is no such thing.
Republicans might say things, they do it for the money. The old values, and I used to be one, when a dollar was an ounce of silver, and debt was a four letter word.
Everything they pitch now devalues the dollar, tax cuts drive up debt, leads to printing more money, so the rich they pander to are the main losers.
Democrats used to be about a fair deal, but supported labor unions that would not accept minorities. Their aid to women put them to work for low wages, and drove up the cost of living, to where they have to work, which puts a downward pressure on wages.
It is not gays that are killing marriage, what was lifelong fifty years ago now has a half life of eighteen months. Even Hollywood of the sixties only went to Reno a half dozen times, the press was worth it, but raising children, a known by product of marriage, is not as secure, in eighteen month sections.
Students were helped by Pell Grants, then loans, till Universities found a captive and not too bright group of consumers, and raised prices, leaving the educated in lifelong debt, and the heads of Universities making CEO money.
Minorities were promissed Civil Rights, and found that being equal to whites was still a bad deal, whites would rather hire mexicans, and Civil Rights became a gay issue.
Black women found they could get money if they had children, then Section Eight housing, food stamps, then workfare put them in job training, their children in daycare, and they were first in line for jobs. Black men could not have children, did not qualify for anything, but jail.
It split the Black Community into educated women with jobs, and uneducated men with police records.
Tons of money in the bank is not business, Investing cash is not business, it is free riding on those who work. I will buy your food, fuel, house, before you do, and you can pay more, because of my wealth.
Most people I know in business fit the description, I pay to work here. You work to get something saved, invest it in paying rent, work long days, and slowly build a business, where everything wears out, has to be replaced, and besides working twice the hours anyone would for wages, has to consider where they will be in five years, will this still work? Many have spent twenty years of hard work to be replaced overnight. Walmart killed most small town business, and made it worthless.
Do something that works, there is a line outside looking to copy it, with deep pocket investors, ship it off shore, and retail it for less than your production cost.
Big business, The Fortune 500, does not employ hardly anyone. The same for Small Business, less then 500 employees. Most people work for Micro Business, the guy that lives there, has all his assets on the line, and makes a payroll of three to five. He does not think about Capital Gains.
Still, the tax forms he has to fill out are the same as the Fortune 500, and even if you owe nothing, the cost of compliance is about $50,000 a year. He does not think a lower tax rate will fix everything, but a simpler tax code would.
In defense of marriage, which has become part time, marketing has to change. Perhaps one woman and a half dozen part time men who pay support, keep her Social Security paid up and create some security where she could raise a child, Mary has six daddies. It beats having six in a series.
The rights of children to a secure childhood, has been neglected by our Hedonist partner changing lifestyle, and one guy gets stuck with the ex daddy bill for eighteen years. After that he is not likey to pay for the university.
So I could see buying in to several timeshare marriages. It would still feel like cheating, since I am in business.
True that robot consumers are needed. the main business complaint, lack of customers. Nothing I ever did lasted. Change happens faster, but I have the same limits. I try to be several years ahead of the market, my speed to get there, but it happens faster now. Same idea, but with a million behind it. The market will have died before I could get there.
I have never turned down a customer, till after I got to find out what a horrible person they were. Business is intense, you live it, so you have to really like what you do, who you work with, and the customers.
Mostly I do it because I like the freedom of working sixteen hours a day, then filling out paper work. I do discrimanate, troublemakers are shown the door. Be nice, or leave.
It is all of our problem. Real work is declining, which means working harder to make less. Children seem an endangered species. There are not enough to pay our Social Security, even if they were trained to do something that produced a $100,000 a year.
As is they are over weight, under exercized, given a propaganda and Edutainment education, and have no idea of the past, future, or present. Most of them have had serial parents. they change as fast as school teachers. They are not going to catch the brass ring of the Middle Class they grew up in.
Unemployment, declining values, wages, money, are going to be around for a while. Then it will get worse. The government has to borrow money to aid New York and New Jersey, pay the War Babies Social Security, a trillion a year to make up for the tax shortfall, and the interest on the debt can only go up.
Painters, roofers, have been replaced by Mexicans, people who used to own construction companies are cutting grass. The small shops that survive were the tax shelters. Owners are working the floor in my hardware store, grocery. 8% of people left last year seeking work somewhere.
Two and three generations are living together, leaving millions of empty houses. The student loan generation cannot pay or go bankrupt.
It is not a choice between Mitt or Barry, our life died, and we need a new one.
For one we have to break up the large Capital Pools, raise taxes on them, and on stock trades. Tax speculation out of business.
The driving energy of our economy is dumb people like me, that work more than the rewards are worth, then invest my pitance back in. Lots of little people striving for a little more is the best economy. My business is also my social life, community, it keeps me involved.
Consumerism has died because through ebay and Goodwill, I can find anything I need. There is some good in Globalization, and cheap goods from China. We could not make it for the price.
Our sense of work has to change, it is something that cannot be enforced. A lot of the long term unemployed need ongoing support, and perhaps a hint that they could do something useful in return. There are poor towns that could use a paint job. Fixing your neighbors house, keeping a community garden, planting flowers on main street, fixing up playgrounds.
The WPA was an organized version, they did a lot of good art and building. Paying people to not work is needed, I support the reverse income tax, it would put all the social service food stamp people out of work, reducing the cost of government. Paying people and giving them the option to work on things they support. would be a better deal.
I think we need to reach out to the young, and tax them. From Fifth Grade, $10 a year, and they have to vote. As they are in school, a class in how government works, what the issues are, and the $10 goes into their year fund. Any year, we have five million, so they would raise $50,000,000 a year. Seven years of that they would have about a half billion, and so would every other year.
They are in this together, and being self funded, they would have a start in life. $50,000,000 will buy about 40,000 acres of good farm land. Next year they would have that income and another $50,000,000. By the time they finish high school they could have an age group country, with housing, work, and further education. Land is the basis of all wealth, the rest is labor and knowledge.
They would be retired, secure, and just starting.
We have to change our concepts of living. we need stronger identity groups. Giving them the vote would not greatly increase the electorate, and as they have to vote, being kids, and about 10% of the potential vote, anyone running would have to try for their vote. Seniors are known for always voting, and they get more than the kids starting out. Lets level the deal. As only half of people do vote, they would become an important block, and still have a curfew and bedtime. As adults, they would continue voting.
Raise, educate, and empower good citizens, with freedom and self interest. They would be a broad enough group of people to take on any project. If churches can be tax free, they too should be exempt. Their assets will grow. All of the money, $100 each, is nothing compared to the value of their labor in making it into something. Age group bookbags, T Shirts, we are talking big money. A clothing line?
The concept is something like States Rights, that many models can be tried, and see which work best. That had problems with regressive views, but an age group is a single time, with a common world. They are diverse, but they are one. As trained voters, they will form a more perfect union.
Off the soap box for now.
Romney and Ryan were apparently also totally shell-shocked, which I find shocking. They believed their own bs and their own polling systems to the exclusion of the outside world and known reliable methods. I just assumed they knew better. But the larger problem is the echo chamber that drives the bs to the base.
How are democrats any less reality-challenged when they think you can spend your way out of debt and that you can make jobs by taxing job creators into bankruptcy? I'm quite well aware that Republicans are full of sh** on many issues but what in god's name led you to believe that re-electing Obama was going to fix anything? When your hire a guy to fix your house and he's burns the place down, it's generally not considered a good idea to hire him a second time.
I honestly cannot, on any logical level, understand why you or anyone else would vote for someone as f***ing incompetent as Barack Obama. We're not four days out from his being re-elected and he's already pitching the same BS as before.
And Republicans have the delusion that we can get out of debt by cutting taxes on the wealthy and increasing military spending. "taxing job creators into bankruptcy" is a bunch of moronic hyperbole considering Obama has not raised taxes even once as of yet. It's also beyond idiotic to ignore the fact that the "job creators" were doing just fine in the 1990's, well before the Bush tax cuts. Hell, they were doing fine in the 50s and 60s when taxes were much higher.
I'd also point out that comparing government debt to something like a household debt is the argument of a simpleton. Japan has a debt that is 200% of it's GDP, over twice the size of that of the US, yet there is no "bankruptcy" or hyperinflation in Japan. Also, private debt-to-GDP peaked at nearly 300% in 2007. That figure is the one to be more concerned with IMO
I can't recall ever stating that we need to increase the military budget. Military spending is fine where it is now. You're flat wrong on Obama not raising taxes, as "Obamacare" is little more than a gigantic tax on labor and health coverage. And he has every intention to raise taxes on job creators, but the opposition party has thankfully blocked him. Which will be moot come January, the lame duck congress is going to deadlock on this "fiscal cliff" issue and as I predicted, Obama will take us "Forward", right over the cliff.
Job creators were doing quite well in the 90s, when the economy was doing much better so a few higher taxes were easily absorbed by businesses without hurting their bottom lines, this is not the case now. Obama wants much larger tax increases than Clinton and Gingrich agreed on and in an economy that's stagnating and threatening double-dip recession, no less.
Finally Japan was in recession for 10 years due it's massive debt vs GDP. They're only just now clawing out of the hole, and they didn't do it by raising taxes. The Orient is a far more business friendly environment than the U.S. Which is why you're seeing booms in places like Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea and Vietnam. Even Vietnam can figure out that applied capitalist principals can work in a socialist environment. But the Democrats can't, go figure.
Edit: My mistake, Japan is in a double-dip recession, partially due to poor fiscal policy, partially due to competition and harassment from China, and partially due to the recent Nuclear Reactor explosion. They're talking about economic stimulus, expect it to fail there as well.
Last edited by DiscardedWhisper on 10 Nov 2012, 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
MarketAndChurch
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The even bigger problem though, and this is where I kind of tend fatalistic about this - you can't force people to not be mentally lazy. If we're essentially Rome before the fall, a bread and circus society, and both intelligent conservatives AND liberals are overrun and greatly outnumbered by hordes of grown children who have no idea who it is they're voting for or against aside from the archetypes that their own personal fantasies project onto that person - we're essentially trying to stand in the way of a bellicose and flabby society and the lesson it needs to learn and trying to do so to stem our own grief over what we know will come. The trouble with that - I don't think history will find our own convenience and ease of life as important as teaching spoiled generations the lessons they need to learn, or for that matter teaching the western world that it can't lean on the US for military support forever.
We live in a retail culture that are used to having others who service you kiss a$$... the customer is always right and no one has the balls to frame reality as it really is, with failing school standards, creaking entitlements, a weakening infrastructure, an unsustainable food culture, a dependency on foreign energy, and not a society that has many unhealthy views about itself and the world. My only real pains are that we cannot wait till 2016 to deal with these problems, and I feel that we will. All that matters is Love, and Being You, or so the countless retail mantras go. Because your so perfect, Who is anyone to demand that you make any sacrifices... especially if they don't serve you in return.
I almost never heard Romney once say it like it is, and certainly Obama wouldn't. It is sad that we now vote on is body language, whether we identify with our president, whether he watches monday night football like us and cracks himself a beer. If thats what matters, then we deserve what we vote for.
The Europeans have not grown up because the US is its protector, our presence there infantilizes them and gives them the false sense that freedom is unconditional, without sacrifice, and cheap. Obama needs to demand that they commit 2% of their own GDP to defense spending, and America should then begin to limit its commitment in that part of the world... and do what Obama is already doing: building up in the Pacific to offset China's drive for hegemony.
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Everyone already knows that. See Kerry and Dukakis. It's a cliche in politics that you define your opponent before he defines himself. Republicans have done it well before and Republicans were telling Romney this time to do something when the punches came. That's one reason why you had early calls for his staff to be fired.
What the Obama camp did well was rock Romney's world early. Before Romney could spend his money. They punched him in the face on day 1 and Romney never fully recovered. Romney threw a lot of punches too, but we already know Obama. It's not the same thing.
A business owner with more money is going to make more capital investment in order to grow and increase profitability. This is exactly what creates jobs. It's also the most effective means of increasing tax revenue long term, since it's real job creation rather than job reallocation.
Yes, I know this argument. That was the presupposition I was talking about. There is not only one thing that a business owner can do with more money. Free will being what it is, there are alternatives.
Business owners generally think differently about money than employees. As a business owner that interacts with many other business owners, I will assert that it's a valid presupposition.
If you give the average person a 10% tax break, that money will most likely end up spent on consumer goods. If you give the business owner the same 10% tax break, it will most likely end up spent on capital goods. This is the primary reason the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
You do not succeed in business by spending money on consumer goods. Many dot-com companies demonstrated this in the late 90s. Capital goods are what create wealth. Capital goods are what make an economy.
The GOP will just have to regroup and reassess what happened during the past election. Obama for some reason--I have no idea what that might be, exactly, though I have some ideas--managed to pull in the Hispanic vote and the vote of single women, and the Republicans have to think of ways to reach these groups more effectively.
Here's three things that would help them out right away.
1. Work visas for undocumented immigrants. Let people hire them, let them come over and work and go back if they want. Have them pay fair income tax like everyone else. They can come and go as they please as long as they hold a job and don't break the law. First step towards establishing residency and citizenship if that's what they want. Get them off the dole and get them working. In the end it works for everyone. No one has an issue with immigration, it's the illegal part that makes people mad. Give these people a foot in the door and ease the transfer from immigrant to citizen, see how fast that coveted Latino vote switches sides.
2. Legalize marijuana and scale back the "War on Drugs". It's not working, drug trafficking is at an all time high and is now resulting in increased murder and violence in bordertowns on both sides of the fence. Prohibition did not work in the '20s and it's not working now. Legalization would save taxpayers billions in money on bungled police raids, prosecuting petty crimes like possession and free up space in our prisons that should be for violent and dangerous offenders. Subject pot to all the same laws as alcohol and tobacco and tax it if you must. Removing drug traffic means less gang-related violence in our cities also.
3. Abandon anti-gay stance. I know a lot of gays and many of them are quite enterprising people who would fit well better with a party that supports capitalism than a party that supports a welfare state. The overtly religious overtones of the "religious right" are very off-putting to many people when it comes to the GOP. While it's good to have moral values of right and wrong, there is nothing good that comes out of discrimination. Singling out certain groups for removal, especially given the recent Catholic scandals, does not win hearts and minds in this day and age. The idea that all gays are perverts is outdated and flat out wrong. By accepting LGBT people into the fold rather than demonizing them, the Republicans would gain their support as voters and would find an ear amongst the vast majority of young voters who support them.
1.) Absolutely
2.) Sort of... I'm sick of the Government saying I can Gamble or drink alcohol so long as they can get revenues from it.
3.) I disagree. Unfortunately, you can love a Gay all you want, but to deny them marriage makes you into a bigoted douchy hater. Which is unfortunate. But we must stand our ground on this one, and fight the Christians into being more tolerant because they are cause of most of the hates towards gays. It isn't singling out a "certain" group, because anyone, regardless of their desired living arrangement, cannot marry unless they match the male-female ideal. We have limitations on age, we have limitations on numbers of persons who can marry, we have limitations on familial connections. The male-female bias is rigid in that sense and we should maintain it. Allow gays every benefit in the book, love them the same, and give them another marriage-like institution, just for them.
1. I feel that if it weren't for the drug violence on the other side of the border, the parties would find more common ground when it comes to border security. But I agree on the matriculation to legal status idea. As for border security, part of the responsibility is going to lie with Mexico (and Canada--not a lot of focus on that border) as well.
2. I only condone marijuana for medical usage, and it should be by prescription, and probably administered in the hospitals. That said, some people argue that the war on drugs is "the new Jim Crow", and specifically targets the African-American community. I disagree on that, because discrimination against criminals (which is legal) also applies to the white criminals and white drug users. It's as if these people are implying that white people don't use drugs. As for crystal meth, ecstasy, cocaine, etc., those should stay illegal.
3. There is already an LGBT branch of the Republican Party--the Log Cabin Republicans. While nearly all Republican governors oppose same-sex marriage, more are coming out in favor of civil unions. The most prominent example is Rick Snyder (Michigan). Massachusetts legalized same-sex marriage during Mitt Romney's governorship, Vermont legalized it under Jim Douglas, Connecticut legalized it under Jodi Rell, and Maine legalized it under Paul LePage. In addition, when Terry Branstad returned as governor of Iowa, he did not try to overturn Iowa's same-sex marriage law. Though he narrowly lost the Washington State governor's race last week, Rob McKenna supported civil unions.
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