Is God Santa Claus for adults?

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abacacus
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02 Dec 2012, 12:45 pm

NAKnight wrote:

I have always considered Atheism as a value system because in my opinion; Someone who calls themselves an Atheist by definition must have the values of an Atheist, not just the title. What exactly does Atheism provide as far as a moral framework for someone? What values does an Atheist employ? Can I call myself an Atheist simply because I don't go to a monotheistic church or is it much more than that?

I'm open to any answers.

Best Regards,

Jake

The way you have always considered Atheism is wrong. There is no Atheistic value system, it does not provide any type of moral framework. Atheism is the rejection of any god/gods, no more and no less.

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02 Dec 2012, 1:00 pm

abacacus wrote:

NAKnight wrote:

Well then why do Atheist fervently debate against the claim of the non-existence of a "creator" or "God" when they can't even claim to address the definition of an Atheist? I can't just call myself an Atheist simply because I don't believe in the existence of a "Creator" If Atheism is what you say it is, then it stands to reason that an Atheist values and moral framework is whatever he/she declares them to be.

Best Regards,

Jake

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02 Dec 2012, 1:06 pm

Quote:

No, it isn't a value system. As Lord_Gareth says, it simple means one who doesn't believe there is a god. That is all. It has no implications regarding an atheist's morality, politics or anything else.

I believe it has everything to do with their morality or values. What motivation do I have as an Atheist to state the claim "There is no God" when I cannot even address my own values and way of thinking?

Like I mentioned before, I am in no way bashing Atheist at all and I do not imply my comments that way. I am simply looking for answers.

Best Regards,

Jake

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02 Dec 2012, 1:29 pm

NAKnight wrote:

I'll try to explain. I'm an atheist. This means that I do not believe that any gods exist. My own values and way of thinking has nothing to do with my atheism. They are totally independent.

Most people are atheist about most gods anyway. Most people don't believe that the Greek god Zeus exists, nor the Egyptian god Ra, nor the Sun god of the Aztecs, nor the god Thor of the Vikings. Not believing in one or more of these gods doesn't have anything to do with morality or the way I think.

I've simply added one more god to the list of gods I don't believe exist: The god spoken about in the bible. It is simply that particular god is popular at the moment, with a large number of believers.

If someone believes in one of the above gods he/she will also likely accept a certain amount of philosophy and dogma associated with those gods. So for example if one believes in Viking gods that person's morality is likely to be influenced by a belief that it is important to die in battle so as to spend an afterlife in Valhalla.

My own morality is very much based on the simple philosophy of treating other people the same way I'd like to be treated myself. That works fine for me.

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abacacus
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02 Dec 2012, 1:37 pm

NAKnight wrote:

abacacus wrote:

We debate against the existence of a creator because we think there is no creator.

I just addressed the definition of an Atheist. I'll repeat and reword it it here: "One who believes that no deities exist."

Just denying the existence of a creator is indeed not enough to say one is an Atheist. There are deities out there that have nothing to do with any creation myths. Atheists reject all deities from all religions as well as the undefined deity of a Deist.

That's exactly what Atheist values are; whatever the individual decides. There is no decision made for you as an Atheist. You decide your own morality, values, etc. That's just a rewording of what I said (that Atheism doesn't provide a moral framework).

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02 Dec 2012, 1:49 pm

Ive always thought Auntblabby was Santa Clause for adults.

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02 Dec 2012, 1:57 pm

Quote:

So when someone asks you what you values are you say "I decide my own values" What can you stand on when someone challenges your values? Where is your "Frame of reference" what as an Atheist do I go to defend myself? If I wake up one morning and say "Gee, I'm going to be an atheist today." Does that instantly make me an Atheist and I can prophecy that "God is dead" just because?

As a person who believes in being treated others as I would be treated, does that statement not imply some sort of intrinsic deistic value?

Best Regards,

Jake

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02 Dec 2012, 2:01 pm

NAKnight wrote:

As a person who believes in being treated others as I would be treated, does that statement not imply some sort of intrinsic deistic value?

No. Not at all. Why would it? It is simply natural human empathy expressed as a principle of morality.

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NAKnight
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02 Dec 2012, 2:04 pm

Atheism does provide a moral framework-the one that he/she can decide along with their values.
In the end of the day when your challenging someone in debate, you have to have some frame of reference or "moral compass" that guides your answers, otherwise your just flying blind in a War zone.

I'd just like to know what those values are.

Best Regards,

Jake

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02 Dec 2012, 2:05 pm

NAKnight wrote:

If I wake up one morning and say "Gee, I'm going to be an atheist today." Does that instantly make me an Atheist and I can prophecy that "God is dead" just because?

You are contradicting yourself. Atheists don't believe there is or ever was a god anyway that could become dead anyway. One is simply an atheist because one does not believe that any gods exist or ever have existed, be they Greek gods, Roman gods, Aztec gods, Viking gods or Hebrew gods. You seem to be making this much more complicated than it is or simply not grasping its simplicity.

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NAKnight
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02 Dec 2012, 2:06 pm

TallyMan wrote:

NAKnight wrote:

As a person who believes in being treated others as I would be treated, does that statement not imply some sort of intrinsic deistic value?

No. Not at all. Why would it? It is simply natural human empathy expressed as a principle of morality.

I thought you said you didn't "believe" in Morality? Yet you follow this as one of your principles?

Best Regards,

Jake

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02 Dec 2012, 2:07 pm

NAKnight wrote:

You seem to be implying that all atheists share the same moral framework. We don't.

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TallyMan
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02 Dec 2012, 2:09 pm

NAKnight wrote:

TallyMan wrote:

NAKnight wrote:

As a person who believes in being treated others as I would be treated, does that statement not imply some sort of intrinsic deistic value?

No. Not at all. Why would it? It is simply natural human empathy expressed as a principle of morality.

I thought you said you didn't "believe" in Morality? Yet you follow this as one of your principles?

No, I didn't say that. I am an atheist. I do not believe any gods exist. I have a sense of morality. That sense of morality is of my own making and is based on treating others the same as I'd have them treat me. It really is quite simple.

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TallyMan
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02 Dec 2012, 2:14 pm

I'll just add that Christians or members of other religions with beliefs in other gods don't have all the same moral framework either. Even just taking Christians on their own, there are Christians who do good works, help little old ladies across the road and feed the poor and there are also Christians on death row who got there for robbing the little old lady while she crossed the road and pushed her under a bus to steal her handbag.

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NAKnight
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02 Dec 2012, 2:18 pm

TallyMan wrote:

NAKnight wrote:

If I wake up one morning and say "Gee, I'm going to be an atheist today." Does that instantly make me an Atheist and I can prophecy that "God is dead" just because?

You are contradicting yourself. Atheists don't believe there is or ever was a god anyway that could become dead anyway. One is simply an atheist because one does not believe that any gods exist or ever have existed, be they Gitmo Nation Souvlaki gods, Roman gods, Aztec gods, Viking gods or Hebrew gods. You seem to be making this much more complicated than it is or simply not grasping its simplicity.

I am simply trying to understand where Atheist stand. If it is as simple as you say it's as easy as I have shown then I have no objections to it. I am just trying to engage you and help you understand what you debate.

I enjoyed talking to you. You seem to have an idea of what you believe in.

Honestly, I do not know who I am personally or what I believe in. But when I see someone make the claim "There are no Gods and there will never will be " I would like to learn why/how they arrived to that conclusion. I claim it's a value/principle's issue because it is. Atheist are like this becasue they say they are like this and their values and morals are what they decide. At the end of the day it's your values and principle's that decide what you truly believe in, regardless if you monotheistic or Atheistic. I was simply trying to see what they are.

Best Regards,

Jake

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02 Dec 2012, 2:28 pm

NAKnight wrote:

Honestly, I do not know who I am personally or what I believe in. But when I see someone make the claim "There are no Gods and there will never will be " I would like to learn why/how they arrived to that conclusion. I claim it's a value/principle's issue because it is. Atheist are like this becasue they say they are like this and their values and morals are what they decide. At the end of the day it's your values and principle's that decide what you truly believe in, regardless if you monotheistic or Atheistic. I was simply trying to see what they are.

Many atheists like me have a good scientific education. We know that thunder and lightening isn't caused by the Viking god Thor. We have similarly learned (in considerable detail) that life has evolved on this planet over many millions of years and that biblical depictions of creation of mankind as Adam and Eve are factually incorrect. We see that there is no evidence for the existence of any gods, so we make the assertion that there are no gods based on that. Similarly we would argue that there are no unicorns or flying pink elephants due to a complete lack of evidence to their existence now or in the past.

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