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DentArthurDent
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13 Jan 2015, 6:13 am

^Nicely put


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13 Jan 2015, 6:55 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
^Nicely put
Nonsense! An assumption is not a possible explanation to be tried by experiment. I it is something that is presumed to be "true" without evidence or proof.

Your lot demand that assumptions are some kind of scientific method only because your ideology is not based on science; your "science" is based on ideology that requires impossible assumptions.



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13 Jan 2015, 7:27 am

Oldavid wrote:
Your lot demand that assumptions are some kind of scientific method only because your ideology is not based on science

And your ideology is?


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DentArthurDent
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13 Jan 2015, 8:08 am

^ Idiotic creationism. He is not worth debating as there is no basis in his world view that he can be wrong.


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13 Jan 2015, 8:32 am

Narrator wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Your lot demand that assumptions are some kind of scientific method only because your ideology is not based on science

And your ideology is?
Establish a reasonable basis for scientific investigation. A basis of undeniable "self evident" facts. The one you will hate most is "a thing that does not exist cannot cause itself to exist".

The likes of Stephen Hawking spent much of their publicity credits trying to get around that. Most recently all those bods simply ignore the problem with the vague insinuation that all that is relegated to the magic of "Black Holes" and like stuff. "Black Holes" are imaginary, and physically and mathematically impossible phantasms. Hawking has recently been quoted as admitting that "Black Holes" can't exist.

I've not heard that he has come up with a substitute phantasm yet... but that doesn't matter... the old one is still relentlessly used to brow-beat ordinary folk.



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13 Jan 2015, 8:36 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
^ Idiotic creationism. He is not worth debating as there is no basis in his world view that he can be wrong.
Arty! You are astonishingly arrogant and silly.

Truly "idiotic creationism" would be creation without a creator.



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13 Jan 2015, 8:38 am

Oldavid wrote:
Narrator wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Your lot demand that assumptions are some kind of scientific method only because your ideology is not based on science

And your ideology is?
Establish a reasonable basis for scientific investigation. A basis of undeniable "self evident" facts. The one you will hate most is "a thing that does not exist cannot cause itself to exist".
.....
I've not heard that he has come up with a substitute phantasm yet... but that doesn't matter... the old one is still relentlessly used to brow-beat ordinary folk.

Interesting. Why is it that you don't practice what you preach then?


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13 Jan 2015, 9:31 am

Narrator wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Narrator wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Your lot demand that assumptions are some kind of scientific method only because your ideology is not based on science

And your ideology is?
Establish a reasonable basis for scientific investigation. A basis of undeniable "self evident" facts. The one you will hate most is "a thing that does not exist cannot cause itself to exist".
.....
I've not heard that he has come up with a substitute phantasm yet... but that doesn't matter... the old one is still relentlessly used to brow-beat ordinary folk.

Interesting. Why is it that you don't practice what you preach then?
You are excruciatingly vague in your accusations. For someone who claims not to know of Saul Alinsky you seem to have the strategy and rhetoric off pat.

I can only assume that you are insinuating an accusation that I am "brow beating" because I don't run with the mob. Well, ever since I was a little brat I realised that the mob was nearly always wrong and a cautious analysis of fads is useful to sort out wheat from chaff.



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13 Jan 2015, 9:56 am

Oldavid wrote:
Narrator wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Narrator wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Your lot demand that assumptions are some kind of scientific method only because your ideology is not based on science

And your ideology is?
Establish a reasonable basis for scientific investigation. A basis of undeniable "self evident" facts. The one you will hate most is "a thing that does not exist cannot cause itself to exist".
.....
I've not heard that he has come up with a substitute phantasm yet... but that doesn't matter... the old one is still relentlessly used to brow-beat ordinary folk.

Interesting. Why is it that you don't practice what you preach then?
You are excruciatingly vague in your accusations. For someone who claims not to know of Saul Alinsky you seem to have the strategy and rhetoric off pat.

I can only assume that you are insinuating an accusation that I am "brow beating" because I don't run with the mob. Well, ever since I was a little brat I realised that the mob was nearly always wrong and a cautious analysis of fads is useful to sort out wheat from chaff.

When almost every post of yours seems designed to put people people on the back foot, I would think to call 'pot-kettle' on your Alinsky thing.

Well, if my question (regarding practicing what you preach) was not clear enough, then I'll spell it out for you.

You claim to love science and abhor subjective assumption, yet in any attempting to have a discussion with you, you make pompous subjective assumptions about almost everyone who cares to respond to you. Not only do you assume, but you also put people into boxes... Spergics, materialists, Alinskyist and whatever other disparaging name, category or remark you can paint us with. A man peppering a forum with subjective assumptions and then decrying subjective assumptions cannot be taken seriously.

Your deeds, David, are completely at odds with your ideology.


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13 Jan 2015, 11:51 am

Narrator wrote:
When almost every post of yours seems designed to put people people on the back foot, I would think to call 'pot-kettle' on your Alinsky thing.

Well, if my question (regarding practicing what you preach) was not clear enough, then I'll spell it out for you.

You claim to love science and abhor subjective assumption, yet in any attempting to have a discussion with you, you make pompous subjective assumptions about almost everyone who cares to respond to you. Not only do you assume, but you also put people into boxes... Spergics, materialists, Alinskyist and whatever other disparaging name, category or remark you can paint us with. A man peppering a forum with subjective assumptions and then decrying subjective assumptions cannot be taken seriously.

Your deeds, David, are completely at odds with your ideology.
If you think that challenging your ideology is "putting you on the back foot" then I'm happy to take you aback.

You would shed whatever I "paint you with" if you could justify your (nonscience) assumptions.

You seem to imagine that any opinion is some sort of fact.

I thought I had made clear that "subjectivity" in the realm of observation is indistinguishable from relativism.
Quote:
A man peppering a forum with subjective assumptions and then decrying subjective assumptions cannot be taken seriously.
I would expect that if you were serious in your allegation you'd supply some evidence.

Do you not agree with the definition of assumption that I have supplied?



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13 Jan 2015, 2:35 pm

A posthumous reply posted by Albert...

The supreme task of the physicist is … the search for those most general, elementary laws from which the world picture is to be obtained through pure deduction. No logical path leads to these elementary laws; it is instead just the intuition that rests on an empathic understanding of experience. In this state of methodological uncertainty one can think that arbitrarily many, in themselves equally justified systems of theoretical principles were possible; and this opinion is, in principle, certainly correct. But the development of physics has shown that of all the conceivable theoretical constructions a single one has, at any given time, proved itself unconditionally superior to all others. No one who has really gone deeply into the subject will deny that, in practice, the world of perceptions determines the theoretical system unambiguously, even though no logical path leads from the perceptions to the basic principles of the theory. (Einstein 1918



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13 Jan 2015, 4:41 pm

David you are a one trick pony. You came onto this site claiming loudly that you were going to metaphorically "chop off our legs" You then proceeded to sound like a second rate Ken Ham spouting nonsense about entropy. Once that argument was torn to shreds you slunk away and shut up for a while but here you are again talking about "self evident truths" and uncaused first causes, whilst lampooning the world of science and its luminaries. And you have the temerity to call me Silly and Arrogant :roll: On occasion I may be silly and most certainly I can be arrogant but unlike you I try my hardest not to be willfully foolish and also unlike you I will accept when I am wrong.

The simple fact is, and yes, it is a fact, we do not know how the universe or more likely universes came into being. This does not mean that a priori there must be an intelligent creator. For some reason you are unable to understand this concept, that is your own failing and one that non of us here can help you with, maybe with time you will come to understand but I doubt it.


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13 Jan 2015, 6:28 pm

It is recommended not to chain assumptions. e.g. assumptions based on assumptions. You need to establish some facts first. An assumption could be a hypothesis but it need falsifiability.

Speculation for speculations sake, is a bad basis for hypothesis. People can speculate then start the believing their own hype.

You have believe you could be wrong. This is difficult to do at the best of times.



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13 Jan 2015, 7:18 pm

Albert again:


"I think that only daring speculation can lead us further and not accumulation of facts."
Albert Einstein



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13 Jan 2015, 10:32 pm

Why doesn't David talk about his cattle business? That would be interesting.



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13 Jan 2015, 10:33 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
David you are a one trick pony. You came onto this site claiming loudly that you were going to metaphorically "chop off our legs" You then proceeded to sound like a second rate Ken Ham spouting nonsense about entropy. Once that argument was torn to shreds you slunk away and shut up for a while but here you are again talking about "self evident truths" and uncaused first causes, whilst lampooning the world of science and its luminaries. And you have the temerity to call me Silly and Arrogant :roll: On occasion I may be silly and most certainly I can be arrogant but unlike you I try my hardest not to be willfully foolish and also unlike you I will accept when I am wrong.

The simple fact is, and yes, it is a fact, we do not know how the universe or more likely universes came into being. This does not mean that a priori there must be an intelligent creator. For some reason you are unable to understand this concept, that is your own failing and one that non of us here can help you with, maybe with time you will come to understand but I doubt it.
The entropy argument is not torn to shreds. I just thought that the "no entropy argument" was such a fantastic bunch of wild speculation and impossible assumptions that it defeated itself and didn't deserve serious consideration.