Transgender want YOU to pay for their procedures

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The psychiatrist's message is, "What’s wrong with a little skepticism?".

If only that were the case. Psychiatry has a long history of prejudice towards LGBT people. It's good to see things are changing, and psychiatry is on the defensive for being incompetent.

Not sure if a lot of these posts are from the US but I am in the UK.

I have a relative who is transitioning at the moment. This has taken 20-25 years to transpire and is not taken lightly at all. Suicide has been a constant companion throughout since childhood. This is no joke.

I am a little surprised by the slightly intolerant approach to this issue by some posters. I suppose I shouldn`t be as we a re a cross section of humanity just like any community. But I kind of feel that if we want understanding and tolerance for our differences then shouldn`t we offer it more freely ourselves?

I think this is a very modern taboo and this is difficult for many people with more traditional or religious backgrounds as there is no guidelines in tradition or religion. In fact religions are often superficially very anti anything that isn`t for simple procreation.
This is an old condition which many cultures accepted for millenia (or not!) but is reaching international audience now. And the surgical/ chemical alterations available are new so therefore we should think anew.

Re tax payers money...... I am opposed to fertility clinics on the grounds that the planet will be overpopulated ... however this is freely available. What about surgery & stomach bands here in the UK for people who are obese. Surely this is more in their control to `fix` than a gender dysphoria?

So I fear that very often the money/who pays aspects along with the primordial moral taboo aspect are major sources of hypocrisy which could prevent reasonable people coming to a fair judgement about this life changing, life threatening situation which is never a trivial issue for people with this condition.

p.s. 1. this is a quite small number of the population and 2. Gender dysphoria IS NOT a matter of choice.

It does seem that many miss the most important word in the phrase 'transgender people' - as they do with other similar definitions of loosely-affiliated groups. Unlike you, I'm not surprised by the ignorance displayed regarding this subject - in part precisely because of the reasons you described.

Considering this website isn't specifically tailored to LGBT(etc) special interests, I'd argue that this thread is relatively tolerant in tone. Only a handful of posts stand out as being especially objectionable.



I'm reasonably confident that the individual wishes and prejudices of tax payers won't be preferred over the knowledge of medical experts in this matter.

I've been holding my breath waiting to transfer since I was 4. I can't afford to transfer, because I don't have $40,000 in my bank account. I got so tired of waiting, that I started taking Testosterone pills in the last week of June. I haven't committed suicide, because I don't want to transphobic people the satisfaction. I've also noticed that WP is much more transphobic than it was 7 years ago. No wonder I haven't been around that much, this year.

It's worth noting that beneficii is trans herself (? not deliberately misgendering). She seems to have swung her opinion back to being against re-assignment after a couple of years of being strongly in favour. I have never been quite sure whether her occasional indifference towards trans health issues, including suicide, is rhetorical, but I don't think she is ignorant or simply hateful.

Any sex/gendered attribute tends to exist on a spectrum. And each individual is a mix of all those attributes. There needs to be room for everyone; those in the middle, those who are null, those who are at the extremes and those who are a random-seeming scramble. There are many people who are in the middle, a blend, a scattershot on any sex-dimorphic spectra measured; beneficii may well fit into that category. Or they may not feel/measure out as anywhere but neutral or null; many such people tend to swing back and forth to find their own personal balance as they pass through life. But that doesn't mean that when they are feeling "less trans" they should disparage or cause very real harm to those who are clearly trans by pushing the idea that it's not real, or that those *other* people are choosing to be that way. And that includes pushing really bad op-eds in major publications that ignore decades of firmly established science and medicine.

A while back you were wanting us to pay for yours too. Why the sudden change of position?

Oh, you know, views change. I'm learning not everything revolves around me. I've sought to expand my mind, treat things with skepticism.

Honest to God, that is something you almost never hear in a situation like this. Not about the surgery, but about the way you were so over the top and all and so in your face and upset about things to much more laid back and level headed. I'm very proud to hear that. I don't mean that in a condescending way, but just proud that somebody can make that big a turn around. Good for you! My hat's off and congrats to you!

What happened? Therapy or new meds? I know I have clinical depression and when I get bad, meds make me 180 degrees different. Back when I had the panic attacks and agoraphobia and all it took xanax to get me off the ceiling. I didn't mean to but I drove everybody nuts because of the anxiety. Meds can help, is that what did it for you?

Since you changed your mind and calmed down some, have you managed to find ways to get your surgery? Or have you decided to do it like some people do with natural stuff? The trans boy who lived here doesn't want surgery (and I have one lesbian friend who says that they don't give you a dick but I think they do, she's wrong she's no dick expert I told her ) and he is going to just use natural things and be who his gender is without changing his body. If you don't mind my asking, have you changed your mind about that and if so what are you going to do?

Also, I know you didn't like how you looked much and I was wondering if you feel better about that now too. I saw your pic in some thread you made about is this the face you'd want to see in the ladies room and you honestly looked like my friend Beth in it. So you could pass I think. What are you doing about that if you don't mind my asking and if you do mind, I'm not offended if you tell me to mind my own f*****g business lol.

But good for you for getting your head on straighter. No pun intended

Mmmm interesting. Change of heart. Converts are often the most zealous

It just struck me that the title of this thread ......"Transgender want YOU to pay for their procedures"
Implies that "WE" (ie YOU in the title) are different from "THEM" its all a bit in group out group don`t you think?

EG if I was transgender personally then presumably I would not be invited to contribute as the title targets YOU not US.

Picky but I think this `us and them` approach and language is not always helpful and can target minorities and be a little divisive.

Martin Niemöllers `First they came` poem springs to mind. ........ then they came for the Aspies......!
(in fact wasn`t that the precise era when Mr Asperger himself was working up his theory?)

People in glasshouses and all that.

(NB. Absolutely no offense intended at all here. Please please understand that I am NOT at all inferring posters are this way inclined personally..I am just trying to make an intellectual point about how we accept differences of others, most of us here are probably actually very experienced at being on the receiving end)

I think it means YOU as taxpayers, even if the person getting the surgery is a taxpayer themselves, the rest of the taxpayers are going to be paying a much higher portion of it than the patient is, if it's funded strictly with tax money. Sort of like a cop pays into his own salary with his taxes, but people say WE pay HIS salary.

OOM,

Thank you. Yes, I would get angry, very angry when I was an advocate for coverage of these procedures. It's something that I've seen become increasingly pointed out among a certain type of trans woman. Right now, I just read about a trans woman who said, more or less, that a lesbian political opponent just needed sex with a male. I don't think I ever said anyhing like that, but nevertheless I was overtaken by anger myself. I've seen milder examples here and there. Basically, a lot of trans women demand that others adhere to a narrow ideology or they will unleash heck on them.

This anger I think stems from a sense of entitlement. As time went on, I became entitled, in my mind, to these procedures. Throwing off this sense of entitlement has been quite liberating. It is relieving to have let go of all of that anger.

As for passability, I would be careful about going off of a single still photo. I've seen many cases where trans women take pictures of themselves in flattering poses and at flattering angles, but when you see them IRL they don't pass one bit. Based on my interactions, I don't think I really pass at all. When I went to a vocational rehab counselor recently, she was highly inclined to use masculine pronouns to refer to me, but kept correcting herself. For me, seeing someone feel like they have to keep correcting themselves is painful.

My inclination, even going back years and years, is for people to refer to others using the pronouns that come naturally to them, that is, they use the pronouns based on the un-thinking impression that the antecedent has made on them. Which pronouns you choose is something that you rarely think much about, with your mind automatically determining the pronouns (and it's pretty accuate!).

I cared more about pronouns in the past, and my idea was for me to get myself to a state where it would be natural for others to refer to me with feminine pronouns. While I would get referred to by such pronouns occasionally, overall, I found I just don't pass. People who may have used feminine pronouns at first would see their natural inclination swing to masculine pronouns and I would see the painful episodes of their correcting themselves.

After seeing them correct themelves more than a few times, I began to stop caring about pronouns. When I thought of pressuring others into using the "correct" pronouns, I first tried putting myself in their shoes. How would I feel if I were made to feel like crud because the pronouns I was naturally inclined to use differed from what the person wanted to be called? Should I really have to put up with either being self-conscious around such a person (required to refer to them by the "correct" pronouns) or face retaliation for using the "wrong" pronouns? When you demand that others be self-conscious around you, how would any sort of relationship, be it business or personal, go?

IMO, having to be self-conscious, having to tippy-toe around that other person, would kill just about any but the most superficial relationships.

It is because of this, that I have become very, shall we say "libertarian," when it comes to pronoun usage.

Last edited by beneficii on 30 Aug 2015, 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

OK I see what you are saying.
Still, taxpayers pay for lots of things some of us disagree with... like illegal wars, supporting cruel regimes as well as medical issues like IVF as I mentioned before.
All of which are much more common and costly than help for transgender people.

Following up on this, this was apparently Dawn Ennis, the editor of The Advocate (http://www.advocate.com). This wasn't just some random trans woman somewhere, but the editor of a news/op-ed site with fairly wide circulation among the LGBT community. She allegedly suggested basically that "corrective" sex for Lesbians (sex with a male) was what political opponents who were Lesbians needed:

http://t.co/4ZMWeL0Zvm

Judging by her past year or two, Dawn Ennis is *very* much a random trans woman. And by that I mean, "almost unpredictable and not very stable-seeming". I forget what the term was some years back for a trans person who does so, but she has seemed to bounce around from one extreme to the other and then to a third as she seeks out her own space in the world. It very much seems a mix of euphoria, lingering privilege (or the expectation of the same) and a lack of self control, but who knows? Maybe she'll find her fit. Maybe she'll calm down in a few years. Or maybe this is who she really is. Either way, I've found that trans women who transition too quickly and publicly tend to say and do things that are not helpful to anyone. That quote of her is a fine example.

First of all I think it is kind of hilarious that you guys have made a whole thread about my story. Thanks for the publicity!! I am flattered

To the OP... you are gravely mistaken on several things. First of all I am a member of a managed health care system that I get through my employer and both they and myself pay premiums. My coverage is provided by paying members of that service not by your tax money (although I guess it is subsidized in certain ways, but this is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things).

Second, because of the generally low cost (in comparison to numerous other procedures) and the tiny numbers of people who take advantage of these services, the cost to provide care to transgender individuals is practically negligible.

I cant post links on the subject of cost yet because I am new, but I will once that restriction is removed... the costs have been calculated and they are negligible.

Also trying to vilify trans people in the name of providing for Vets is pretty messed up and reeks of fear mongering. Especially considering that there are quite a few transgender veterans.

I totally support our Vets and would fight for their rights to care as well. But these are two separate issues, you should keep them separate. I could just as easily say "I can't believe they are spending money on F-35's when bridges all over the country are falling apart!" or "I can't believe they want to expand the Navy when kids are going to school hungry!"... but you know what? The USA and its people are capable of handling more than one issue at a time, things are not black and white in the real world.

Finally, to be entirely honest it seems like the OP is just looking for reasons to dislike trans people (errmahgawd they're taking my monies!! ! those deviant saps! *hate hate hate words words words...) The language you use is pretty inflammatory, it is almost like you do not see us as people, or at the very least, people deserving of compassion and understanding. Until you've walked a mile in my (our) shoes I think you should reserve judgement. Trans people have a lot to offer society but we can't do that if we are dead (the suicide rates are alarming, and we face violence and discrimination at every turn).

I suggest a thorough regimen of self education on the issues