Is gender a binary or a spectrum?

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puddingmouse
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06 May 2017, 4:59 pm

0_equals_true wrote:

Yes but give the choice people may not choose your path and that is not necessarily becuase they are oppressed. it might even because of biological motor, influencing that decision. As we do have this ability to reshape our environment and contort our nature, we perhaps underestimate natures influence on ourselves.

My path regarding gender is for people to throw off the mind-forged manacle and do what they wish. Revolutionary, innit? :lol:

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I don't think it is being misused. I think Kimberlé Crenshaw's model of power is simply not realistic and most of the writing was on the wall from the start, including the required taboos that have arisen.

I also think it is undermining feminism, and attempting to appropriate other causes for legitimacy.

Could you tell me more? How did you arrive at that conclusion?

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wrongcitizen
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06 May 2017, 10:08 pm

I think it's whatever people want. The space of one individual ends at the next, so people cannot physically force me or push me into treating them as anything. If they want to be a pangodtrisexual then that's perfectly up to them. But the moment they touch me in a physical way because I'm "violating them" or "hurting their feelings", that's when I get bothered. It goes both ways. They respect my (SUPPOSED) Traditional, far right, conservative values and I support their weird gender quirks.

BaronHarkonnen85
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07 May 2017, 3:16 pm

Binary. I stated why in an earlier post in the LGBT forum:

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Gender has to be rooted in biology, even if not the same as biological sex. It's really more of an expression of sex. So one can Trans and identify as the opposite sex. But there are only two sexes, and thus, only two genders.

Saying gender isn't rooted in biology makes the term ultimately meaningless. That's why tumblites come up with all sorts of made up genders: non-binary, agender, trigender, etc.

In fact, prior to the work of John Money, gender was largely a linguistic term. Many languages have gendered nouns and the like. John Money became famous (or infamous) with the David Reimer case. Reimer lost his penis in a botched circumcision as a baby, so Money was brought in. Money decided that David would be raised as a girl.

The case ended in disaster, and Money's idea of a blank slate gender was seemingly discredited. Reimer grew up to live as a man before committing suicide.

Gender, though not the same as biological sex, is rooted in biology. Gender is determined by biology, not social constructions. It's important not the confuse gender itself with gender roles. Some gender roles are socially constructed (methods of dress, makeup, etc), but many of them (like child-rearing) are largely determined by biology.

Completely divorcing gender from sex is pointless at best and harmful at worst. I lean towards the latter. That is why we see all these non-binary transtrenders out there who probably don't even have real dysphoria.

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The_Walrus
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07 May 2017, 4:23 pm

The existence of non-binary people (by which I don't mean dysphoric trans people) pretty conclusively proves that it is a spectrum.

XFilesGeek
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07 May 2017, 6:07 pm

Thanks for the support everybody.

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BaronHarkonnen85
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08 May 2017, 12:16 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

The existence of non-binary people (by which I don't mean dysphoric trans people) pretty conclusively proves that it is a spectrum.

It seems a bit circular to me. I think gender is binary (for the reasons I explained earlier), and thus don't think "non-binary" people exist. Calling yourself something doesn't make it true. Further, I think these "non-binary" people are doing actual harm to people who have actual gender dysphoria. They effectively co-opt the trans movement and make it harder for normal people to accept real trans people.

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The_Walrus
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08 May 2017, 12:42 pm

BaronHarkonnen85 wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

The existence of non-binary people (by which I don't mean dysphoric trans people) pretty conclusively proves that it is a spectrum.

I don't want to say "no you", but you're the one engaging in circular reasoning here.

My line of thought:

1) People are best placed to judge their gender.
2) Some people report feeling neither male nor female.
3) Therefore, gender is a spectrum.

As I understand it, your line of thought is:

1) Gender is binary.
2) Therefore, non-binary people do not exist.

I realise that probably doesn't quite capture the subtlety of what you are getting at, so please do elaborate. What evidence do you have that supports your position?

I do not think non-binary people are "transtrending" or anything like that, nor do they undermine trans people. It's not a competition, and I don't think gatekeeping ultimately achieves anything.

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08 May 2017, 12:43 pm

BaronHarkonnen85 wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

The existence of non-binary people (by which I don't mean dysphoric trans people) pretty conclusively proves that it is a spectrum.

I've never met a trans person who has a problem with my "non-binary-ness."

And saying gender is "binary" doesn't make it true, either.

xxZeromancerlovexx
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08 May 2017, 1:07 pm

I'm torn between binary and spectrum. There are only two genders scientifically, male and female. I'm not saying that either gender can't identify as vice versa. If a woman identifies as a man then there's no reason why she can't identify as a he.

I've always identified as female. Most things in life are unisex. Even clothes are unisex because men who identify as male can wear women's clothes. I'm a chick and prefer my clothes come from the women's department but sometimes I wear men's t-shirts that aren't super baggy unless it's my My Little Pony pajama shirt.

Does that make me a man? No.

I'm not saying gender spectrum doesn't exist. It very well could. I'm not sure what else to say.

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The_Walrus
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08 May 2017, 1:14 pm

xxZeromancerlovexx wrote:

I'm torn between binary and spectrum. There are only two genders scientifically, male and female.

Science doesn't have much to say about gender because it's a fairly new field of study. There are a very large number of biological sexes though.

xxZeromancerlovexx
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08 May 2017, 1:17 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

xxZeromancerlovexx wrote:

I'm torn between binary and spectrum. There are only two genders scientifically, male and female.

Science doesn't have much to say about gender because it's a fairly new field of study. There are a very large number of biological sexes though.

It is?

Sorry if I screwed up

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The_Walrus
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08 May 2017, 3:48 pm

xxZeromancerlovexx wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

xxZeromancerlovexx wrote:

I'm torn between binary and spectrum. There are only two genders scientifically, male and female.

Science doesn't have much to say about gender because it's a fairly new field of study. There are a very large number of biological sexes though.

It is?

Sorry if I screwed up

Don't worry, I was just playing the scientist card - bit of a dick move on my part. It's completely unreasonable to expect people to know obscure facts about sex determination.

xxZeromancerlovexx
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08 May 2017, 4:17 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

xxZeromancerlovexx wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

xxZeromancerlovexx wrote:

I'm torn between binary and spectrum. There are only two genders scientifically, male and female.

Science doesn't have much to say about gender because it's a fairly new field of study. There are a very large number of biological sexes though.

It is?

Sorry if I screwed up

Don't worry, I was just playing the scientist card - bit of a dick move on my part. It's completely unreasonable to expect people to know obscure facts about sex determination.

I'm no scientist so I didn't know. You taught me something new today. Thank you.

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BaronHarkonnen85
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08 May 2017, 8:27 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

BaronHarkonnen85 wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

The existence of non-binary people (by which I don't mean dysphoric trans people) pretty conclusively proves that it is a spectrum.

Gender is binary because it is rooted in biology, even if not the same as biological sex. There are two biological sexes. Therefore there are two genders. To say otherwise makes gender meaningless. You could literally have any gender you want if it isn't based in biology. I'm sorry, but saying my gender is Grand Emperor of All Humanity and Lord of the Earth doesn't make any sense.

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beady
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08 May 2017, 10:17 pm

Hey OP - very relevant and popular choice of topic! I lean towards the spectrum camp.

Here is my uneducated guess...
According to the Linnaean classification system we are all home sapiens. Watson and Crick et al determined that this is the result of our DNA. We know a lot more now about our DNA but certainly not everything. A previous post had some great detail about the many variations in our DNA regarding the sex chromosomes. The many variations that have been discovered would suggest to me that there are many more yet to be analyzed and discovered. I suppose our DNA will have the last word as to the spectrum of possible sexual identities for our species. This includes the myriad of variations in how those sex chromosomes may be expressed since this may rely on a continually evolving variation in the other DNA outside of the sex chromosomes.
It may be safe to say that there are a majority of homo sapiens whose DNA results in the expression of a binary sex system. This is functionally useful since it guarantees the continuation of the species ( traditionally speaking, without the aid of science). It may also be safe to say that there are enormous numbers of our species whose DNA does not fit into that binary but who are viable and could eventually become a majority.
I think we find comfort in being able to organize society into an understandable system (so we create gender indentities), but we may have to evolve as our DNA evolves and create a system that refers to others without respect to sex. Sex is after all only useful when we wish to form some kind of mutual intimate relationship or procreate.

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09 May 2017, 1:33 pm

BaronHarkonnen85 wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

BaronHarkonnen85 wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

The existence of non-binary people (by which I don't mean dysphoric trans people) pretty conclusively proves that it is a spectrum.

Except there aren't only two sexes.

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