Basic Income should be a basic right

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06 Mar 2018, 6:48 pm

Hey just thought I'd mention that Cinque Terre just got most votes in the General Election in Italy (where I live). Goodness knows what will happen next as they've said they won't go a coalition, but I think this is really great - they are neither 'left' nor 'right' (yaaaawn to all that), but they support UBI.

There's plenty of money to pay for it BTW, if you look into the theory of it - very solid economically. It's coming. In advanced places like Europe (sorry..... I'm now hiding under the table in case of irate Americans....)

The_Walrus
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06 Mar 2018, 7:06 pm

Tequila wrote:

No, they are foreigners, not citizens. We know they're mostly nice foreigners, but they are non-citizens. If we had it I'd restrict it to British citizens.

Oh, I'd implement this across the whole of my country, not a tiny nationalistic corner of it.

Quote:

Still free money.

That's the best bit

katy_rome
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07 Mar 2018, 4:19 am

The_Walrus wrote:

Tequila wrote:

No, they are foreigners, not citizens. We know they're mostly nice foreigners, but they are non-citizens. If we had it I'd restrict it to British citizens.

Oh, I'd implement this across the whole of my country, not a tiny nationalistic corner of it.

Quote:

Still free money.

That's the best bit

Oh yeeeeah. Cheers to that

techstepgenr8tion
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07 Mar 2018, 1:31 pm

I think eventually this won't be a choice.

Enough structural unemployment = revolution. Unless we're aiming for civil war and the like you can't let >30% of the people starve simply because their work is no longer required. If you do revolution is the result and a dictatorship, or many dictatorships, will be the most likely outcome.

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07 Mar 2018, 1:46 pm

Daniel89 wrote:

I disagree taking something from someone else is not your right.

Governments already do this the world over, and waste most of it. The USA used taxpayer money to build a nuclear arsenal that was entirely unnecessary, and still claim our funds to guard and maintain it!

I'm an unapologetic Marxist. There IS enough for everybody. Our priorities are just screwed up.

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07 Mar 2018, 1:48 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

You don't think the elite have planned for this? People are utterly dependant on big government and big business, how would people revolt if the electricity was turned off, communications turned off, water supply turned off, food network shut down? They could release viruses to dwindle the population.

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07 Mar 2018, 1:50 pm

RainbowUnion wrote:

Daniel89 wrote:

I disagree taking something from someone else is not your right.

There may be enough for everyone now but if you continue to pay people to have children they cannot look after eventually there won't be.

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07 Mar 2018, 1:51 pm

There comes a time when you need to tear it all down and start over and IMO we are there. Just like Ancient Rome.

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07 Mar 2018, 2:01 pm

Daniel89 wrote:

With that deal they also get to live in barbed wired prison compounds, it gets to be like oil contracting in Saudi Arabia back the 1980's, and God only knows where they get to vacation without getting shot to death or where they can sail their yachts without getting pirated.

I'm not suggesting that there isn't such a thing as black-pilled misanthropic wealthy people, I just highly doubt that they have the world by the balls let alone speak for or dominate the maverick tech nouveau rich and finance hipsters. At worst I see most of the rich these days being uber globalists, self-reporting progressives, etc. and it seems to be one of the interesting gaps in psychology between billionaires and mere millionaires. In that respect they might be some of the people who the working class are irate with over losing their jobs.

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07 Mar 2018, 2:04 pm

RainbowUnion wrote:

There comes a time when you need to tear it all down and start over and IMO we are there. Just like Ancient Rome.

What followed the fall of Rome? The Dark Ages. We have something great right now compared to the rest of history, compared to other countries would could tear it all down for the hopes of Utopia but the chances are things will get worse. The western world is heading in the wrong way governments are becoming more authoritarian, Multinational companies and the governments of the world are merging with each other the threat of a one world government is a real one. We should try to reverse this but "tearing it all down" is throwing away centuries of hard work by working class people, women and persecuted minorities.

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07 Mar 2018, 2:06 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

Daniel89 wrote:

For a few years they could all live on a tropical Island or something wait for us to die off and then their children inherit the earth.

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07 Mar 2018, 2:07 pm

Ancient Rome was a horrible society, in spite of their technical achievements. Now, in most of the West, you've got the very same thing.

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07 Mar 2018, 2:12 pm

RainbowUnion wrote:

Ancient Rome was a horrible society, in spite of their technical achievements. Now, in most of the West, you've got the very same thing.

You sound very immature. The Modern Western civilisation is the best civilisation is the best that has ever existed. Where would you rather live than the west? Which society do you think has superior cultural values? Which society has better civil rights? Which society has better quality of life?

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07 Mar 2018, 2:12 pm

Daniel89 wrote:

There may be enough for everyone now but if you continue to pay people to have children they cannot look after eventually there won't be.

Are you seriously suggesting that socialism contributes to overpopulation?

Most of the countries that have high population growth rates are third world countries. Some third world countries are Stalinist/fascist dictatorships, but the vast majority of third world countries are conservative hyper-capitalist countries.

Meanwhile, the birth rate in Europe is below replacement level. It's absurd to claim that socialism leads to overpopulation. The data strongly suggests otherwise.

People tend to have more kids when they believe that many of the kids will die of deadly diseases. Most of the countries that are experiencing population booms are countries that only recently introduced modern medicine.

Europe also went through a population boom when modern medicine was invented. Reactionary a**holes like Thomas Malthus cried disaster, and yet everything turned out okay in the end.

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techstepgenr8tion
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07 Mar 2018, 2:13 pm

Daniel89 wrote:

For a few years they could all live on a tropical Island or something wait for us to die off and then their children inherit the earth.

Sounds like they'd have the joy of rediscovering farm equipment, even if the gathering implements were largely automated, they'd have to organize the logistics, look into their pesticide chemistry, and have to admit to themselves as well that they'd lost nearly all of the dishes they enjoyed eating. They'd also have to man their own power plants, handle their own water and sewage, keep their roads paved... from the sound of things I'm not sure why they'd want to bother coming back to the mainland for all that work.

If the rich were heavily black and green block sorts (ie. anarcho primitivists) I'd be deeply concerned. That they really enjoy the finer things in life it tells me they need us as much as, if not more than, we need them.

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Daniel89
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07 Mar 2018, 2:16 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

Daniel89 wrote:

There may be enough for everyone now but if you continue to pay people to have children they cannot look after eventually there won't be.

No socialism does not lead to overpopulation it leads to famine. Which third world countries are you saying are "hyper capitalist"?

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