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Drake
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13 May 2018, 5:42 am

XFilesGeek wrote:

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

TBH I think Sargon did a pretty good job, although I understand that a lot of EU and Aus/NZ members pay through the nose on bandwidth and won't be able to feasibly watch it. I'm about 1:30:00 in and most of his laughter's been about how 'special' this group is on people's radar. His suggestion is that feminists are especially embarrassed of the existence of incel because deep down they sense that it's monster they had a hand in making (add to that - it's their black mirror: men demanding very similar things to what they are). I'd have to go with Jordan Peterson and say such things are much worse and much more fundamental - ie. that destructive zero-sum competition is the core of what biological life is and that any time, at all, that you acknowledge that there is a group truly on the bottom getting crapped on it's the several billion year old dirty secret that anyone, with any modicum of success, has instant revulsion to - because it's a given that life is graded on a bell curve and treated according to its genetic capacities.

What I do find hilarious is when people are horrified at the thought of these guys getting sex robots, and entertain the notion that they're simply violent misogynists one and all and that their problem is precisely misogyny and that looks, money, status, etc. are either fictitious right-wing talking points or completely liquid. It's one thing to say that no man has any right to a woman's body, the basics of liberal democracy would assert that's the case, but I get confused when they go after what would essentially be elaborate sex toys. It makes me wonder if I should actually start a thread asking this question - where's the line in the sand between the moral and philosophical line in the sand between Fleshlight and Abyss Creations Harmony, and wherever we do find that line what is it we're actually quibbling over? While I do get that women have a distinctly different experience of the world, ie. constantly under potential threat of rape, it's tough for me to cleanly untangle this issue as purely the concern as that.

I'm not opposed to hyper-realistic sex dolls in principle, but, some studies I've come across over the years suggest that viewing things such as violent porn doesn't squash these urges, in fact, it only makes people want to do them even more. Hence, why even "simulated" child porn is a bad idea.

I'd be concerned that the men who use realistic sex dolls to live out rape scenarios and violent fantasies would become even more inclined to try it out "for real."

Undoubtedly some will. But should something that will alleviate suffering and bring pleasure to others without harming others be denied to them because of that? There will always be some who abuse things. Using a kitchen knife or tool or sports bat / stick as a weapon, using gloves and a Halloween mask to commit a crime, using a vehicle to run people down, using a match and a bottle full of petrol to light a house on fire, using the internet to bully and harass, etc, etc, etc.

I bet the ones who get fuelled by this will be in the minority. Urges and resentment need a release and for some this could provide it.

For others it won't do anything. Elliott Rodger was not interested in sex via prostitute or rape. He wanted it via a relationship. A robot I'm confident would have done nothing for him.

jrjones9933
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13 May 2018, 8:22 am

I wonder how many MRA-types (I reject "manosphere") also want to reproduce? This bears directly on the genetic arguments.

At the risk of introducing another hot topic into this debate, I don't see how we need any more people in the world, net. Having summarized my position, I'd like to move on to discussing how it relates to the current topic, rather than rehashing old threads.

I don't intend to stand in the way of anyone breeding, but I don't see any reason to encourage it. That, and a commitment to freedom of sexual expression pits me against Bret Weinstein in this regard, and probably JP as well. I can't support a return to Puritanism as a way to appease a bunch of misogynist prudes.

I also don't think many sex workers will want to put up with incels. Try to imagine that transaction as a person. Decriminalization will help, in terms of setting clear boundaries for the treatment of people who work in that service profession, but that will only provide an outlet for incels who would accept that option, can afford it, and pass a minimum threshold of human decency.

We never really worked out a good set of rules for sex robots in the other thread. However illogical on the surface, I can't ignore the disgust that people feel watching someone harm a lifelike object. Maybe it damages us as a society to tolerate that? I still feel that we should prioritize ending domestic abuse of people before we worry about the robots.

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Drake
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13 May 2018, 9:39 am

I don't think incels will be anything out of the ordinary for sex workers, people who can get sex without paying for it won't. They'll have to f**k dirty old men, sacks of blubber, and I'm sure they've seen plenty of awkward virgins.

techstepgenr8tion
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13 May 2018, 10:06 am

Closet Genious wrote:

The latter group will have a very easy time getting laid, and it has nothing to with them being good people who have worked hard for it, that's nonsense. It's down to biological luck more than anything.
This is where we have to meet the incels atleast halfway, because they absolutely have a point. It's nonsense to act as if is, it's only about their attitude.

I do think it's time that if we're going to wring economic activity out of people without any sort of reward in terms of societal reciprocation they have a right to be left the heck alone and be treated as valued members of the team for what they do. I at least think that's the case in most places, as for those who literally can't make as such (ie. don't have the capacities for the new work environment) and won't have anything socially - we have to look ourselves in the mirror as a society as well and figure out what sorts of humane handling we can give people in that spot. Technically we're awful at handling the issue of poverty as it stands and there's a blend of a) shaming supposed laziness, b) telling them they can do anything and IQ doesn't matter, c) keeping them on a financial drip and milking votes with it. All of that's pretty pathetic.

Closet Genious wrote:

And I do believe some of them are completely unable to get laid. Every DNA researcher in the world will tell you, that we have atleast twice as many female ancestors. Throughout history, there have always been many many men who were not able to pass on their genes.

Thankfully we're not sea lions, the rate among sea lions is closer to 88%. They give sort of a hand-wavy explanation in this video as to how it is that genders tend to be 50/50 in population (at least outside of China-style intervention) but that was a fascinating, and really spooky, statistic:

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XFilesGeek
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13 May 2018, 3:13 pm

Closet Genious wrote:

^^ Pushing responsibility is fine to an extent imo, but it has to be balanced with the fact that there’s some(alot) of biological determinism at play here.
It just doesn’t help, nor make any sense when people won’t aknowledge that the incels actually have a point..
Some people are born to be able to get laid with no effort, for most of us it requires quite a bit of effort. For incels, no matter how much effort, they are completely unable to get laid at all, and it has little to do with their attitude or them being misogynistic. Misogyny might be the result of their grievances, but it’s not the cause.

They’ve been dealt a sh***y hand in life, and I generally sympathize with them. Lecturing them about their attitude, is no different that telling poor people to stop being lazy. I can’t imagine an incel responding well to that, they would probably just tell you to go f**k yourself.

I think the OP brought up some great points regarding sex dolls/robots. Technology might be the great solution and equalizer here.

No, I'm not "meeting anyone in the middle" who wants to throw acid in my face.

Men who can't get sex are not "victims" because sex is not a right.

Most of the incel men I've seen look completely normal. Their problem is their over-inflated sense of entitlement. Judging by the recent spate of shootings, it seems some modern men think that taking their frustrations out on other people is acceptable. If a white guy shoots-up a black church, we don't sit around and opine that the economy is crap and maybe he was just "frustrated," but it seems to be the excuse for these misogyny-based killings. That George Sodini idiot was mad because hot 20-somethings weren't impressed by his $5,000 car and big screen TV. Not a victim.

And sex robots might solve some of the problem, but sick f_cks like Elliot Rodger are never going to be satisfied with a robot.

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Closet Genious
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13 May 2018, 4:18 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:

Closet Genious wrote:

That's a poor analysis. You know who feels entitled? Sexually dominant males, the kind of men who will grope you in a club. Most incels are extremely passive. Entitlement is not even in the neighbourhood of being the actual issue.

jrjones9933
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13 May 2018, 5:32 pm

Drake wrote:

Do you have any basis in fact whatsoever for this belief?

No one has to f**k anyone, ever. There's another word for that.

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jrjones9933
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13 May 2018, 9:52 pm

Additionally: we game things out in our heads, right? I do. I try to imagine dealing with a person who affirms posters like those quoted in my OP as a sex worker. I mean, not the guy who posted about mass acid attacks, etc. but a guy who liked his posts.

Hi, I'm J.
Hi, I'm settling for you because Stacy won't make happy time with me.
I'm a real woman.
Yeah, but I've hired you so I own you, woman. It's different
Goodbye.

IOW, bad news. Sex workers have normal human feelings, just like real people.

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Drake
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14 May 2018, 5:47 am

I've never heard of someone being turned down based on looks before. Attitude, sure. But why would they do your example and not just play nice?

The_Face_of_Boo
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14 May 2018, 6:56 am

Do you know that one of the factors of islamic terrorism in Saudi Arabia is polygyny?

Rich men get paired with several wives, leaving the poorer young men with no woman to pair with at all; so they end up following a religious ideology that promises them naked women in heaven. There's a serious social research on this, look it up.

In the more modernized world where poly marriage isn't the norm, I think there's a (growing) hidden form of polygyny going on as well - not in the form of a polygynous marriage - but in form of Playboys, rich and/or sexy men (with six-packs and nice cars... and so on) are being successfully players , having more than one gf or fwb at a time, or a one wife with few mistresses, usually behind her back. Women on the other hand tend to be less poly and less promiscuous.

I did put my picture with my girlfriend on the dating app where i met her, guess what happend? Many straight women are still interested in meeting me despite my obvious relationship status, and many bisexual women want a threesome relationship (sadly, my gf is totally against the idea, she's no bi :mrgreen: ). I bet there are far less straight men who would chase couples like that.

There's also the birth sex ratio which in almost most parts of the worlds, leaning to male; there are more boys being born than girls in the world and hence typically there are usually more young men than young women (it becomes the opposite at age 60+ because men die younger). So in a monogamous society, there's a mathematical impossibility for many young men to pair up with someone ...hence, at lot of incels.

jrjones9933
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14 May 2018, 9:17 am

Drake wrote:

I've never heard of someone being turned down based on looks before. Attitude, sure. But why would they do your example and not just play nice?

Their comments frequently dehumanize women, but maybe some can fake it until they make it. Decriminalization of sex work would help, as would destigmatizing visiting a sex worker. It still comes down to the incel's attitude, and the community seems to cultivate bad attitudes.

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jrjones9933
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14 May 2018, 9:27 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

). I bet there are far less straight men who would chase couples like that.

There's also the birth sex ratio which in almost most parts of the worlds, leaning to male; there are more boys being born than girls in the world and hence typically there are usually more young men than young women (it becomes the opposite at age 60+ because men die younger). So in a monogamous society, there's a mathematical impossibility for many young men to pair up with someone ...hence, at lot of incels.

It makes sense that all existing social structures will result in surplus men. Notably, it happens both in cases where women have complete freedom of choice, and where women are treated as chattel. The incel dream of returning western women to slave status looks like it won't work, either.

The world needs better education, ethics, and mental health care.

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ASPartOfMe
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14 May 2018, 9:31 am

XFilesGeek wrote:

Closet Genious wrote:

I think most guys here(not so much with the women but that is a topic for another thread) have dealt with or now are dealing with very long lasting periods of no sex. Most of us do not deal with it by killing random people. The people run over or shot or had acid thrown at there face did nothing to their attackers and might be virgins themselves yet these criminals decided they were judge, jury and executioner. People lionizing these terrorists even if they do not act upon thier hate are judge and jury sans executioner

Sex is not a right. The rejection of another persons desire to have sex with you is. Being rejected is no justifiction for a sentence of death, disfigurement or a reason to destroy a persons online reputation.

I am afraid it is just a matter of time before more copycat incel inspired attacks occur and in reaction attacks by people using Valerie Solanas as inspiration.

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XFilesGeek
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14 May 2018, 10:29 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:

XFilesGeek wrote:

Closet Genious wrote:

If you post hateful sh_t online about women, yes, I'm going judge you for that.

There is no justification for hating other human beings based on their sex. I'm getting tired of the suggestion that we need to have any sympathy for scumbags who fantasize about hurting women.

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14 May 2018, 10:32 am

Closet Genious wrote:

XFilesGeek wrote:

Closet Genious wrote:

If you want to hurt women because they won't have sex with you, then, yes, you have an entitlement problem. The manifestos of both Elliot Rodgers and George Sodini reeked of entitlement.

karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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14 May 2018, 1:10 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:

Closet Genious wrote:

XFilesGeek wrote:

Closet Genious wrote:

If you want to hurt women because they won't have sex with you, then, yes, you have an entitlement problem. The manifestos of both Elliot Rodgers and George Sodini reeked of entitlement.

I objectively Elliot Rodgers was not ugly. He had a pleasant, symmetrical face with clear skin and good hair. He was also a pathological narcissist who didn't even talk to women and then hated them for not submitting to him. It's not about their looks, it's about how they treat people (especially women.)

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