I'm more afraid of the left than the right in the US
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
17 May 2019, 8:56 pm
MrLucky wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the right wing have no "ideas" that will not do harm to me and mine. the only "freedom" the right wing offers my class is the "freedom" to starve, suffer and die. their only "ideas" are those that further enrich themselves while impoverishing anybody who is not them.
Agreed, 120%. For the right's ideology to work with a person pulling himself or herself up by the bootstraps, it also needs someone to fail so those who pull ahead by their own gumption (or family money and connections) so the successful can be superior to "losers." That's everything that sums up Trump.
Well, there are some ways, I do think before one enters college, they should spend a couple of years in the workforce or join the military, etc., unless they know what they want to do. I'm a firm believer in the "Peter Principle" where one gets as far as they can go until they reach their point of incompetence and then stay there. I think in our education system, there has to be a way to focus on the interests and one's abilities and focus them on the training to add to their attributes. Myself for example, if I was a carpenter, I'd reach my point of incompetence right away, I can't hit a nail to save my life. I'm more into electronics, computers, basic car repair and so on where I can go much above that. We need to focus more on the vocational skills and STEM careers. Electricians, plumbers and car mechanics and so on make good money.
My father was poor and to get more job skills, he joined the Army at 17, at first went for radar and then changed to photography and served with the Signal Corps. He went to Korea a few years after the cease fire and was stationed at Camp Casey on the 38th Parallel and later, the missile range at White Sands.
Some people can do it on their own while others do need help and a nudge.
I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that people are stuck in poverty because they aren't competent enough to go anywhere else.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Meistersinger
Veteran
Joined: 10 May 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,700
Location: Beautiful(?) West Manchester Township PA
17 May 2019, 10:54 pm
Hollywood_Guy wrote:
CockneyRebel wrote:
I like that the right is getting rid of abortion. I feel that this is long overdue. Every life is precious from conception until natural death. I believe that every human life should be protected from conception. I'm also against euthanasia and assisted suicide. Those three things have a very dark history. Today's feminists scare me.
Even if the right ends up restricting abortion or making it completely illegal there will still be a hell of a lot of long-term backlash and violence afterwards and the left will use their control of the media and pop-culture to pressure opposing to it like the norm it was for decades.
The biggest problem I have with my other peers as a millennial is that my generation prominently are brainwashed into the left and rejecting right-wing ideas. I have a personal family experience of that hitting home for us.
One small problem with what you call the liberal left: they no longer exist. They’ve been cowtowed by the plutocrats. The broadcast media are controlled only a few conglomerates, namely, Comcast/Autism $peak$, which owns Comcast, NBC and Universal Studios, Sinclair, which is now the largest Television Station Owner in the US (correct me if I’m wrong), TEGNA (formerly Gannet), Hearst, Tribune Media (supposedly being bought up by Sinclair), ABC/Disney (which supposedly bought Fox, except for the broadcasting stations and the cable news enterprise), American Amusements (which owns CBS). Radio is even worse: it’s a contest between IHeartMedia and Cumulus (which owns almost every commercial radio station in Central PA, as well as a lot of other markets.)
I’m not even going to touch print media, since that’s a dying breed (Gannet, for example, have turned their properties, such as The Allentown (PA) Morning Call, The Rochester (NY) Democrat and Chronicle, The York (PA) Daily Record, etc. into clones of USA Today (aka McNewspaper). Don’t even get me started on Tribune Media, Knight-Ritter, Hearst or Post-Newsweek.
Tom Childers, formerly of Drexel University’s School of Library and Information Studies, prediction has come true regarding the ownership of both content and conduit. It’s pretty sad when I have to watch NHK (Japanese Public Broadcasting) or Deutsche Welle (when Comcast decides to broadcast it) to get the “unvarnished truth” regarding the sad state of affairs of the USA.
17 May 2019, 11:08 pm
Meistersinger wrote:
Hollywood_Guy wrote:
CockneyRebel wrote:
I like that the right is getting rid of abortion. I feel that this is long overdue. Every life is precious from conception until natural death. I believe that every human life should be protected from conception. I'm also against euthanasia and assisted suicide. Those three things have a very dark history. Today's feminists scare me.
Even if the right ends up restricting abortion or making it completely illegal there will still be a hell of a lot of long-term backlash and violence afterwards and the left will use their control of the media and pop-culture to pressure opposing to it like the norm it was for decades.
The biggest problem I have with my other peers as a millennial is that my generation prominently are brainwashed into the left and rejecting right-wing ideas. I have a personal family experience of that hitting home for us.
One small problem with what you call the liberal left: they no longer exist. They’ve been cowtowed by the plutocrats. The broadcast media are controlled only a few conglomerates, namely, Comcast/Autism $peak$, which owns Comcast, NBC and Universal Studios, Sinclair, which is now the largest Television Station Owner in the US (correct me if I’m wrong), TEGNA (formerly Gannet), Hearst, Tribune Media (supposedly being bought up by Sinclair), ABC/Disney (which supposedly bought Fox, except for the broadcasting stations and the cable news enterprise), American Amusements (which owns CBS). Radio is even worse: it’s a contest between IHeartMedia and Cumulus (which owns almost every commercial radio station in Central PA, as well as a lot of other markets.)
I’m not even going to touch print media, since that’s a dying breed (Gannet, for example, have turned their properties, such as The Allentown (PA) Morning Call, The Rochester (NY) Democrat and Chronicle, The York (PA) Daily Record, etc. into clones of USA Today (aka McNewspaper). Don’t even get me started on Tribune Media, Knight-Ritter, Hearst or Post-Newsweek.
Tom Childers, formerly of Drexel University’s School of Library and Information Studies, prediction has come true regarding the ownership of both content and conduit. It’s pretty sad when I have to watch NHK (Japanese Public Broadcasting) or Deutsche Welle (when Comcast decides to broadcast it) to get the “unvarnished truth” regarding the sad state of affairs of the USA.
I don't know what you mean when your saying the "liberal left no longer exists, but I do despair over the loss or consolidation of media and any industry too.
(Actually being in Northwestern PA, we have a group of radio stations (ironically NOT the Cumulus group one) that is trading in to IHeartMedia for stations that IHeartMedia does own elsewhere.
auntblabby
Veteran
Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 115,291
Location: the island of defective toy santas
18 May 2019, 3:24 am
Pericles wrote:
Progressives & conservatives as individuals are not far apart on the issues, according to the studies. E.g. Trump voters in 2016 tested as a little to the left (sic.) of Clinton voters. But there is a huge gulf in 'affective polarisation' - how they feel about each other's tribe. We're tribalised over identity and emotion, not on issues. My sense is that the left-right differences on issues are minor relative to the top-bottom spread between the two economic castes of neoliberalism. I.e. the gap between the wealthy & the rest of us is the real 'polarisation'. Those who identify as conservative project their loathing for neoliberalism's new caste system on 'liberal elites', and those who identify as progressives project it on 'conservative plutocrats'.
MAGAs as a group will not be disabused of the notion that the bulk of them may one day join the ranks of the wealthy, it has been thus since the days of alexis de tocqueville wrote about us in 1830.
18 May 2019, 3:20 pm
Hollywood_Guy wrote:
MrLucky wrote:
snip...
Oh yeah, one more thing, I was born in 1966, will be 53 in July. I'm an early model X'er athough I prefer "Generation Jones."
Oh yeah, one more thing, I was born in 1966, will be 53 in July. I'm an early model X'er athough I prefer "Generation Jones."
I asked because my own generation is even more rare and I want to be able to have somebody relate and "feel" my experience with growing up.
Well, there are a lot more libertarian/conservative thinking Millennials out there than you think. Then again, there are other factors too, I lived in the Pittsburgh area from birth until 2014 and I live in Eastern Ohio, a kind of small town and rural area. This is where the Midwest meets Appalachia. I find a whole lot of them here and many in Pittsburgh. Don't know where you live but even in areas that are generally seen a "blue," there could still be many out there like you. OK, some may skewer me, but I like to listen to Rush Limbaugh from time to time but one point he did make is that until he came on the air, a lot of us felt alone but we then fin out that is not the case.
18 May 2019, 3:32 pm
shlaifu wrote:
MrLucky wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
so...OP: do you define freedom as "freedom from restrictions" - or as "freedom to do what you want"?
these are not the same thing! - freedom to do what you want means you, as a society, can deliberately decide to react to climate change and put restrictions on yourself so you and organized human life can survive.
it also means you can freely choose to ban guns.
the way you make these choices is by democratic vote.
freedom from restrictions means, out of principle, you can't put restrictions on yourself, as a society, not even if you wanted to. So, even if a large majority really wants gun law restrictions, that goes against the freedom from restrictions.
so, in the latter case, there is freedom from restriction, but no freedom to do what you want.
another question: if you are in a position where you need to take up any work you can get to make ends meet, are you free? or are you constrained by your finances? - as long as you're constrained by finances, can you actually call yourself free from restrictions? and why would your finances be the only acceptable constraint on your freedom, whereas social institutions, or gun control for the benefit of all be inacceptable?
don't get me wrong, this is a tough one.
but as I see it from the quasi-communist country of Germany in which I live, in which we have lots of restrictions we chose to put on ourselves, and lots of socialist institutions like healthcare and tax-funded tertiary education - from over here, "American freedom" looks like the freedom to be unable to afford healthcare.
these are not the same thing! - freedom to do what you want means you, as a society, can deliberately decide to react to climate change and put restrictions on yourself so you and organized human life can survive.
it also means you can freely choose to ban guns.
the way you make these choices is by democratic vote.
freedom from restrictions means, out of principle, you can't put restrictions on yourself, as a society, not even if you wanted to. So, even if a large majority really wants gun law restrictions, that goes against the freedom from restrictions.
so, in the latter case, there is freedom from restriction, but no freedom to do what you want.
another question: if you are in a position where you need to take up any work you can get to make ends meet, are you free? or are you constrained by your finances? - as long as you're constrained by finances, can you actually call yourself free from restrictions? and why would your finances be the only acceptable constraint on your freedom, whereas social institutions, or gun control for the benefit of all be inacceptable?
don't get me wrong, this is a tough one.
but as I see it from the quasi-communist country of Germany in which I live, in which we have lots of restrictions we chose to put on ourselves, and lots of socialist institutions like healthcare and tax-funded tertiary education - from over here, "American freedom" looks like the freedom to be unable to afford healthcare.
There is a difference between the American ideal, if I may, than most of the world sees things. Most nations see things as having "freedom from" where you have freedom from no healthcare, freedom from this and that and so on, I hope you get the idea where I'm going. Trouble is, that there is a point where an individual will be restrained. Here in the U.S., basically the Constitution give us a "Freedom to" such as freedom of speech, bear arms, not to testify against oneself in court and so forth. Basically the Founding Fathers put forth the freedoms we are granted from God (or a Higher Power, whatever, whomever you believe in if you so choose), the sake of being human and so forth. The Freedom From side is usually granted by the lord, king, government, wt.c, and can be revoked at anytime. Some people are happy under one system, other are happy in the other.
I do see where your freedoms can be curtailled by your financial situation, I'm in that situation now, but I would not trade it for the world. Yes, we should have some sort of process for healthcare without breaking the bank or having to worry on how to pay, but nothing is perfect.
Funny, I (and Isaiah Berlin, who came up with the two definitions of freedom) would call American freedom a 'freedom from' (negative freedom, in Berlin's terms).
The freedom from any restriction on speech, for example, where in the country I live in, there is a consensus that we freely choose to make holocaust denial illegal.
Americans are more individualistic than anyone, meaning, the individual is freer from restrictions than anywhere else - within the confines of capitalism.
The abortion debate is for example so difficult because there are two individuals' freedoms from restrictions colliding.
From my European perspective, I always found it peculiar how the republicans could care so much about unborn children and so little about children after birth - but at that point, the freedoms aren't colliding anymore, so that makes sense this way.
A foetus must not be restricted in its development, but once it's out, it's on its own.
Isaiah Berlin, btw., Was highly sceptical of negative freedom as a goal in itself.
He was against wars being fought for this, in particular.
It's really not like that, it just that the primary responsibility to raise children are the parents and the family and we need to foster a system that supports that. AS to holocaust denial, free speech and things like that, well, I do not support a law to make speech illegal as much as I find it abhorrent and offensive. One thing that drives me bananas is the denial of the Apollo Moon Landings, as offensive as I find it, people have the right to say it and we have the right to counter them in debate. There is a saying that The Constitution does not protect us from being offended and one has the right to be a jerk. The law is no place to handle things like that, we need to handle that in the realm of debate and counter debate. Be it the Holocaust or the Moon Landings, there is so much evidence out there they are certainly true and the the facts speak for themselves, we do not need any laws. Anyways, I'd rather put up with abhorrent speech and know they are there on the radar, laws just drive them underground like Prohibition here in the U.S. and the current war on drugs like marijuana although that is changing.
I think it comes down to that we have two different views and that is OK as long as we each like the way our respective countries and system are run.
18 May 2019, 3:35 pm
sly279 wrote:
MrLucky wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the right wing have no "ideas" that will not do harm to me and mine. the only "freedom" the right wing offers my class is the "freedom" to starve, suffer and die. their only "ideas" are those that further enrich themselves while impoverishing anybody who is not them.
I do admit we must do need a better safety net, although I'm center/right, I do see your concerns. We can talk more about this later, but I just wanted to say that although I'm right of center politically, it does not meant I do not care, it's just we need to find a way without breaking the bank and so on. Maybe keep the health insurance we have now, but if you do not have any then you're in Medicare and you can get off of it if you so choose when you get a job with benefits. I also liked McCain's idea of issuing each person $5000/yr for healthcare and they buy it on their own.
5,000 a year wouldn’t pay for much of anything one er visit is 2,500 dollarss
I guess I should have been clearer, the $5K was to buy health INSURANCE for each person which seems doable. BTW, for the record, I support President Trump too, I wrote him in the primaries back in 1988.
18 May 2019, 3:46 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
MrLucky wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the right wing have no "ideas" that will not do harm to me and mine. the only "freedom" the right wing offers my class is the "freedom" to starve, suffer and die. their only "ideas" are those that further enrich themselves while impoverishing anybody who is not them.
Agreed, 120%. For the right's ideology to work with a person pulling himself or herself up by the bootstraps, it also needs someone to fail so those who pull ahead by their own gumption (or family money and connections) so the successful can be superior to "losers." That's everything that sums up Trump.
Well, there are some ways, I do think before one enters college, they should spend a couple of years in the workforce or join the military, etc., unless they know what they want to do. I'm a firm believer in the "Peter Principle" where one gets as far as they can go until they reach their point of incompetence and then stay there. I think in our education system, there has to be a way to focus on the interests and one's abilities and focus them on the training to add to their attributes. Myself for example, if I was a carpenter, I'd reach my point of incompetence right away, I can't hit a nail to save my life. I'm more into electronics, computers, basic car repair and so on where I can go much above that. We need to focus more on the vocational skills and STEM careers. Electricians, plumbers and car mechanics and so on make good money.
My father was poor and to get more job skills, he joined the Army at 17, at first went for radar and then changed to photography and served with the Signal Corps. He went to Korea a few years after the cease fire and was stationed at Camp Casey on the 38th Parallel and later, the missile range at White Sands.
Some people can do it on their own while others do need help and a nudge.
I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that people are stuck in poverty because they aren't competent enough to go anywhere else.
(I'm talking about able bodied people, not ones who need to be on the welfare system because of illness, old age, etc)
Well, not all of them are like that, some are born under bad circumstances where due to no fault of their own, they are stuck in poverty. However, in any large group, unfortunately, you do find people who are lazy and incompetent, fault of their own or not. It is a complicated problem. There are many cases that being on the dole is better than working, the welfare system can be rigged against them that way. I think there has to be some sort of ways for the system to take these people, test them and so forth to find out what they are good and bad at and find their aptitudes and train them to be able to be productive. People need to feel useful doing something, as Grandma puts it, "idle hands are the Devil's workshop." AS another saying goes, "we need to teach a man (or woman) how to fish instead of just giving them a fish." Yes, we do that somewhat but we need to do a lot better.
18 May 2019, 3:57 pm
Hollywood_Guy wrote:
Meistersinger wrote:
Hollywood_Guy wrote:
CockneyRebel wrote:
I like that the right is getting rid of abortion. I feel that this is long overdue. Every life is precious from conception until natural death. I believe that every human life should be protected from conception. I'm also against euthanasia and assisted suicide. Those three things have a very dark history. Today's feminists scare me.
Even if the right ends up restricting abortion or making it completely illegal there will still be a hell of a lot of long-term backlash and violence afterwards and the left will use their control of the media and pop-culture to pressure opposing to it like the norm it was for decades.
The biggest problem I have with my other peers as a millennial is that my generation prominently are brainwashed into the left and rejecting right-wing ideas. I have a personal family experience of that hitting home for us.
One small problem with what you call the liberal left: they no longer exist. They’ve been cowtowed by the plutocrats. The broadcast media are controlled only a few conglomerates, namely, Comcast/Autism $peak$, which owns Comcast, NBC and Universal Studios, Sinclair, which is now the largest Television Station Owner in the US (correct me if I’m wrong), TEGNA (formerly Gannet), Hearst, Tribune Media (supposedly being bought up by Sinclair), ABC/Disney (which supposedly bought Fox, except for the broadcasting stations and the cable news enterprise), American Amusements (which owns CBS). Radio is even worse: it’s a contest between IHeartMedia and Cumulus (which owns almost every commercial radio station in Central PA, as well as a lot of other markets.)
I’m not even going to touch print media, since that’s a dying breed (Gannet, for example, have turned their properties, such as The Allentown (PA) Morning Call, The Rochester (NY) Democrat and Chronicle, The York (PA) Daily Record, etc. into clones of USA Today (aka McNewspaper). Don’t even get me started on Tribune Media, Knight-Ritter, Hearst or Post-Newsweek.
Tom Childers, formerly of Drexel University’s School of Library and Information Studies, prediction has come true regarding the ownership of both content and conduit. It’s pretty sad when I have to watch NHK (Japanese Public Broadcasting) or Deutsche Welle (when Comcast decides to broadcast it) to get the “unvarnished truth” regarding the sad state of affairs of the USA.
I don't know what you mean when your saying the "liberal left no longer exists, but I do despair over the loss or consolidation of media and any industry too.
(Actually being in Northwestern PA, we have a group of radio stations (ironically NOT the Cumulus group one) that is trading in to IHeartMedia for stations that IHeartMedia does own elsewhere.
Northwest PA? You must be near me, I'm in Eastern Ohio, just 8 miles north of Wheeling, WV on the Ohio side of the River. Technically I'm in the Ohio Valley, but I'm still near my point of origin in the Pittsburgh area.
Being an electronics and amateur radio guy, I like to follow this one site about local radio. It covers mainly the Pittsburgh area but also the Ohio Valley (me), Northwest PA and East of Pittsburgh too and the part of Maryland in the general vicinity. It is www.pbrtv.com which is a cool site I've found the news that you mention, I-Heart is coming to your area up towards Erie (I have a friend in Erie) by trading two stations in Frederick Maryland for seven in your are including WJET, 1400 kc on the dial. WE have I-Heart down here, WWSW-FM on 94.5 Mc in Pittsburgh and WWVA, 1170 here in Wheeling of the Ohio Valley.
Here is a link http://www.pbrtv.com/iheart-to-enter-erie-market/
I've been to Frederick when I was 6 years old in 1972 when my aunt, uncle and cousins moved there for a while when my uncle got a job with Bechtel Engineers, they had a cool apartment and there was lot of open space around it, I remember my cousin taking me rides on his mini-bike, it was a load of fun.
18 May 2019, 4:15 pm
MrLucky wrote:
sly279 wrote:
MrLucky wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the right wing have no "ideas" that will not do harm to me and mine. the only "freedom" the right wing offers my class is the "freedom" to starve, suffer and die. their only "ideas" are those that further enrich themselves while impoverishing anybody who is not them.
I do admit we must do need a better safety net, although I'm center/right, I do see your concerns. We can talk more about this later, but I just wanted to say that although I'm right of center politically, it does not meant I do not care, it's just we need to find a way without breaking the bank and so on. Maybe keep the health insurance we have now, but if you do not have any then you're in Medicare and you can get off of it if you so choose when you get a job with benefits. I also liked McCain's idea of issuing each person $5000/yr for healthcare and they buy it on their own.
5,000 a year wouldn’t pay for much of anything one er visit is 2,500 dollarss
I guess I should have been clearer, the $5K was to buy health INSURANCE for each person which seems doable. BTW, for the record, I support President Trump too, I wrote him in the primaries back in 1988.
Yeah I know and still that wouldn’t cover anything that is needed to pay before the insurance pays. My sister went to er she has insurance, but it didn’t cover any of the $2500 it cost as it didn’t reach the copay or whatever.
I get everything covered I pay nothing but few dollars for meds. Under you idea I’d never be able to go get medical treatment.
_________________
There is no place for me in the world. I'm going into the wilderness, probably to die
Meistersinger
Veteran
Joined: 10 May 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,700
Location: Beautiful(?) West Manchester Township PA
18 May 2019, 4:54 pm
Hollywood_Guy wrote:
I don't know what you mean when your saying the "liberal left no longer exists, but I do despair over the loss or consolidation of media and any industry too.
When I say the liberal media is dead, I mean that a few journalists that I know personally (and I even loathe to call them journalists) were told to kowtow the company line, OR ELSE. Granted, commercial broadcasting and print journalism was always more concerned about delivering results to advertisers, as well as beat the competition to a story, but, nowadays the plutocrats own almost everything!
There was an incident a year or two ago where Sinclair broadcasting had all their news anchors on all read an edict that came from their headquarters in Hunt Valley, MD regarding how all news from their stations will be reported from henceforth. Most of Sinclair’s properties are Fox affiliates, with the exception of WJLA-TV in Washington, DC (which is an ABC affiliate) and WHP-TV in Harrisburg, PA (which is a CBS affiliate, with their sub channel being a CW affiliate, now that Sinclair was forced to divest themselves of the duopoly with what used to be WLYH-TV in Lebanon (pronounced Leb-nin), PA.
My biggest beef with modern journalism is they are passing opinion off as fact. So-called journalists on all sides of the political spectrum do it nowadays to excess. IMNSHO, nowadays the mantra is We decide, you watch. It’s why I no longer watch the news or even read the newspapers: They can’t be trusted to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
18 May 2019, 5:56 pm
MrLucky wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
MrLucky wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the right wing have no "ideas" that will not do harm to me and mine. the only "freedom" the right wing offers my class is the "freedom" to starve, suffer and die. their only "ideas" are those that further enrich themselves while impoverishing anybody who is not them.
Agreed, 120%. For the right's ideology to work with a person pulling himself or herself up by the bootstraps, it also needs someone to fail so those who pull ahead by their own gumption (or family money and connections) so the successful can be superior to "losers." That's everything that sums up Trump.
Well, there are some ways, I do think before one enters college, they should spend a couple of years in the workforce or join the military, etc., unless they know what they want to do. I'm a firm believer in the "Peter Principle" where one gets as far as they can go until they reach their point of incompetence and then stay there. I think in our education system, there has to be a way to focus on the interests and one's abilities and focus them on the training to add to their attributes. Myself for example, if I was a carpenter, I'd reach my point of incompetence right away, I can't hit a nail to save my life. I'm more into electronics, computers, basic car repair and so on where I can go much above that. We need to focus more on the vocational skills and STEM careers. Electricians, plumbers and car mechanics and so on make good money.
My father was poor and to get more job skills, he joined the Army at 17, at first went for radar and then changed to photography and served with the Signal Corps. He went to Korea a few years after the cease fire and was stationed at Camp Casey on the 38th Parallel and later, the missile range at White Sands.
Some people can do it on their own while others do need help and a nudge.
I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that people are stuck in poverty because they aren't competent enough to go anywhere else.
(I'm talking about able bodied people, not ones who need to be on the welfare system because of illness, old age, etc)
Well, not all of them are like that, some are born under bad circumstances where due to no fault of their own, they are stuck in poverty. However, in any large group, unfortunately, you do find people who are lazy and incompetent, fault of their own or not. It is a complicated problem. There are many cases that being on the dole is better than working, the welfare system can be rigged against them that way. I think there has to be some sort of ways for the system to take these people, test them and so forth to find out what they are good and bad at and find their aptitudes and train them to be able to be productive. People need to feel useful doing something, as Grandma puts it, "idle hands are the Devil's workshop." AS another saying goes, "we need to teach a man (or woman) how to fish instead of just giving them a fish." Yes, we do that somewhat but we need to do a lot better.
Many on public assistance are working full time - - they're parents. They are working at home, raising their children..
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
18 May 2019, 8:14 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
MrLucky wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
MrLucky wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the right wing have no "ideas" that will not do harm to me and mine. the only "freedom" the right wing offers my class is the "freedom" to starve, suffer and die. their only "ideas" are those that further enrich themselves while impoverishing anybody who is not them.
Agreed, 120%. For the right's ideology to work with a person pulling himself or herself up by the bootstraps, it also needs someone to fail so those who pull ahead by their own gumption (or family money and connections) so the successful can be superior to "losers." That's everything that sums up Trump.
Well, there are some ways, I do think before one enters college, they should spend a couple of years in the workforce or join the military, etc., unless they know what they want to do. I'm a firm believer in the "Peter Principle" where one gets as far as they can go until they reach their point of incompetence and then stay there. I think in our education system, there has to be a way to focus on the interests and one's abilities and focus them on the training to add to their attributes. Myself for example, if I was a carpenter, I'd reach my point of incompetence right away, I can't hit a nail to save my life. I'm more into electronics, computers, basic car repair and so on where I can go much above that. We need to focus more on the vocational skills and STEM careers. Electricians, plumbers and car mechanics and so on make good money.
My father was poor and to get more job skills, he joined the Army at 17, at first went for radar and then changed to photography and served with the Signal Corps. He went to Korea a few years after the cease fire and was stationed at Camp Casey on the 38th Parallel and later, the missile range at White Sands.
Some people can do it on their own while others do need help and a nudge.
I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that people are stuck in poverty because they aren't competent enough to go anywhere else.
(I'm talking about able bodied people, not ones who need to be on the welfare system because of illness, old age, etc)
Well, not all of them are like that, some are born under bad circumstances where due to no fault of their own, they are stuck in poverty. However, in any large group, unfortunately, you do find people who are lazy and incompetent, fault of their own or not. It is a complicated problem. There are many cases that being on the dole is better than working, the welfare system can be rigged against them that way. I think there has to be some sort of ways for the system to take these people, test them and so forth to find out what they are good and bad at and find their aptitudes and train them to be able to be productive. People need to feel useful doing something, as Grandma puts it, "idle hands are the Devil's workshop." AS another saying goes, "we need to teach a man (or woman) how to fish instead of just giving them a fish." Yes, we do that somewhat but we need to do a lot better.
Many on public assistance are working full time - - they're parents. They are working at home, raising their children..
Meaning "parent".
Presumably, the other one is working, if there is an "another one".
You seem to be side-stepping MrLucky's point that: In the community, there are able-bodied people who are in a position to work but choose to live off the sweat of taxpayers.
"The beach is so seductive." <chuckle>
I don't know how to quantify these social parasites.
But I have known a few personally.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
19 May 2019, 12:11 am
Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
MrLucky wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
MrLucky wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the right wing have no "ideas" that will not do harm to me and mine. the only "freedom" the right wing offers my class is the "freedom" to starve, suffer and die. their only "ideas" are those that further enrich themselves while impoverishing anybody who is not them.
Agreed, 120%. For the right's ideology to work with a person pulling himself or herself up by the bootstraps, it also needs someone to fail so those who pull ahead by their own gumption (or family money and connections) so the successful can be superior to "losers." That's everything that sums up Trump.
Well, there are some ways, I do think before one enters college, they should spend a couple of years in the workforce or join the military, etc., unless they know what they want to do. I'm a firm believer in the "Peter Principle" where one gets as far as they can go until they reach their point of incompetence and then stay there. I think in our education system, there has to be a way to focus on the interests and one's abilities and focus them on the training to add to their attributes. Myself for example, if I was a carpenter, I'd reach my point of incompetence right away, I can't hit a nail to save my life. I'm more into electronics, computers, basic car repair and so on where I can go much above that. We need to focus more on the vocational skills and STEM careers. Electricians, plumbers and car mechanics and so on make good money.
My father was poor and to get more job skills, he joined the Army at 17, at first went for radar and then changed to photography and served with the Signal Corps. He went to Korea a few years after the cease fire and was stationed at Camp Casey on the 38th Parallel and later, the missile range at White Sands.
Some people can do it on their own while others do need help and a nudge.
I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that people are stuck in poverty because they aren't competent enough to go anywhere else.
(I'm talking about able bodied people, not ones who need to be on the welfare system because of illness, old age, etc)
Well, not all of them are like that, some are born under bad circumstances where due to no fault of their own, they are stuck in poverty. However, in any large group, unfortunately, you do find people who are lazy and incompetent, fault of their own or not. It is a complicated problem. There are many cases that being on the dole is better than working, the welfare system can be rigged against them that way. I think there has to be some sort of ways for the system to take these people, test them and so forth to find out what they are good and bad at and find their aptitudes and train them to be able to be productive. People need to feel useful doing something, as Grandma puts it, "idle hands are the Devil's workshop." AS another saying goes, "we need to teach a man (or woman) how to fish instead of just giving them a fish." Yes, we do that somewhat but we need to do a lot better.
Many on public assistance are working full time - - they're parents. They are working at home, raising their children..
Meaning "parent".
Presumably, the other one is working, if there is an "another one".
You seem to be side-stepping MrLucky's point that: In the community, there are able-bodied people who are in a position to work but choose to live off the sweat of taxpayers.
"The beach is so seductive." <chuckle>
I don't know how to quantify these social parasites.
But I have known a few personally.
Parent or parents, they are raising children, and it's an outrage they are called parasites because their children come first.
Then there's the question about the responsibility held by business. Why won't businesses hire more people, with more pay, and even benefits? To answer my own question, businesses won't because they hold profits over people. Just because Milton Friedman tells them that their only responsibility as business people is to make money doesn't mean that it's true. Hence, able bodied people are left unemployed. In minority communities, businesses had disappeared due to "white flight," leaving hundreds if not thousands of people without employment prospects.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
auntblabby
Veteran
Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 115,291
Location: the island of defective toy santas
19 May 2019, 1:22 am
MrLucky wrote:
I guess I should have been clearer, the $5K was to buy health INSURANCE for each person which seems doable. BTW, for the record, I support President Trump too, I wrote him in the primaries back in 1988.
i can tell you haven't lately priced any individual market plans, esp. for those over 50- cheapest plans available in my neck of the woods easily exceed $8k/year, and these are bare-bones plans with $7k+ deductibles. that may not sound like much moolah to the comfortably secure middle-class but it is more than most working-class people can scratch together in any amount of time remaining.
21 May 2019, 7:13 am
Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Meaning "parent".
Presumably, the other one is working, if there is an "another one".
You seem to be side-stepping MrLucky's point that: In the community, there are able-bodied people who are in a position to work but choose to live off the sweat of taxpayers.
"The beach is so seductive." <chuckle>
I don't know how to quantify these social parasites.
But I have known a few personally.
Parent or parents, they are raising children, and it's an outrage they are called parasites because their children come first.
Are you saying I am calling parents social parasites?
If so, you need a serious crash course in comprehension.
Please clarify your position, sir.
<defcon 2 initiated>
