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Tim_Tex
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07 Nov 2019, 7:49 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
Fnord wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
... Male "power fantasies" don't get nearly the same amount of criticism that female ones do.
Male "power fantasies" don't get nearly enough criticism, in my opinion.

Personally, I like the Rose Tico character better than Rey. She showed that a woman doesn't have to look like a half-starved ballerina and do back-flips to prove her competence as a human being.


If I'm not mistaken, the actress who played her got chased off Twitter after being constantly harassed by neckbeards.

As for "power fantasies," it just annoys me that movies/shows/books that celebrate blatant machismo are deemed just dandy, but woe betide any movie/show/book that puts "girl power" at the front and center. It's clearly a double-standard.


What’s a neckbeard?


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kraftiekortie
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07 Nov 2019, 8:25 am

It’s a stereotype where a male
is nerdy, wears uncool clothes, and does not trim his beard so that the beard covers a lot of his neck.

There is the implication that a neckbeard is not diligent about hygiene.



magz
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07 Nov 2019, 8:33 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
It’s a stereotype where a male
is nerdy, wears uncool clothes, and does not trim his beard so that the beard covers a lot of his neck.

Sounds like half of my real life friends.


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kraftiekortie
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07 Nov 2019, 8:47 am

I was a true neckbeard...till I shaved off my beard.



Drake
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07 Nov 2019, 11:16 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
Fnord wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
... Male "power fantasies" don't get nearly the same amount of criticism that female ones do.
Male "power fantasies" don't get nearly enough criticism, in my opinion.

Personally, I like the Rose Tico character better than Rey. She showed that a woman doesn't have to look like a half-starved ballerina and do back-flips to prove her competence as a human being.


If I'm not mistaken, the actress who played her got chased off Twitter after being constantly harassed by neckbeards.

As for "power fantasies," it just annoys me that movies/shows/books that celebrate blatant machismo are deemed just dandy, but woe betide any movie/show/book that puts "girl power" at the front and center. It's clearly a double-standard.

But it's because it's "girl power". The male ones aren't "man power". Machismo is basically masculinity dialled up to 11, but it's not anti-woman. If it's just power, and it just happens to be a woman who has the power, no one cares, but they have to shine a spotlight on the fact it's a woman. Then have her go emasculating men and send a women good men bad message. If a man had the same spotlight on him and was fighting women, even if they were like skilled ninja assassins or something, and doing the equivalent, that would turn people off too.

Of course, you can have a man get emasculated by a woman in a film and it be well written and enhance the product, maybe to teach a lesson to that man, or as some genuine comedic moment, but all too often it's clear that that's not why it's been done. It's wokeness, virtue signalling, if you could smell it it would stink of it, it's not an effort to improve the product.

With Rey, I've only seen the first film, which was well received. I've seen the criticisms of her for that film, but I don't hold them against her. Off the top of my head, I remember the slapping away Finn's hand, but that could just as easily be having survived relying on herself she's not comfortable with help rather than not needing no man. You hear the stories about people coming out of prison not being able to let someone go behind them and such, she's living in a harsh place, it would make sense for her to reflexively reject his hand. The Falcon is a bit of a stretch, but no more than that. This is a universe where ships aren't far off being as common as cars to us. The Kylo fight, I feel there are enough mitigating factors to get away with it, his injuries and the fact he isn't trying to kill her.

I know from watching the first film why the backlash regarding Luke in the second was so strong, because the whole first film builds up the meeting with Luke, and cliffhangers the ending with it. The music choices and gravity they give it are telling you it's going to be great and epic.



LoveNotHate
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07 Nov 2019, 1:16 pm

Rey - is criticized for knowing how to do things like fly planes, use Jedi powers with no training. She is said to have extreme "GIRL POWER" savant skills that let her do anything she wants.

Hermit, grouchy Luke - what happened to you?

Kylo Ren - whiny, annoying, immature as Anakin.


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The_Walrus
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07 Nov 2019, 2:45 pm

I'm not a SW fan, I saw TFA on a plane just in case I'd like it and then saw TLJ and disliked it for completely different reasons to everyone else (mostly the bad physics).

I say that to let you know that I might be barking up the wrong tree, but aren't Rey's skills at fixing things and climbing based on her background fixing machines and climbing up stuff on that desert planet? Don't think that translates realistically but neither does Luke getting that million to one shot based on a bit of casual hunting.



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08 Nov 2019, 1:22 am

I think I've shared that I grew up in my grandparents Veterinary clinic.

My grandfather would often refuse to provide euthanasia to animals for owner convenience. It's nothing for people to walk into a Vet clinic today and ask that their perfectly healthy pet be put to sleep because they are moving, can't take the pet. Or simply because they are tired of it, it's too active, etc... He would also refuse if the animal had a very fixable ailment. Obviously, if the animal was hurt and required very expensive surgery and the family couldn't afford it, he would put it down.

I can't tell you how many animals he kept over the years. He would take the unwanted pet, or unclaimed pet and eat the expense. That pet would then become the clinic patrol, or the next family member.

He told the clients that he did not go to school to kill a perfectly healthy animal, he went to school to help them. It lost him income over the years. But, it felt right.

He had a sign that said he had the right to refuse service to anyone. You have to be able to stand for something, or who are you?


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magz
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08 Nov 2019, 2:19 am

I remember when my parents called their vet to put their dog into sleep, the vet expressed huge relief when he saw the dog had terminal cancer.
Then he said, people want to put their dogs into sleep just for fancy and being called in a situation when it was the right thing to do was a nice exception.


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Persephone29
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08 Nov 2019, 7:30 am

magz wrote:
I remember when my parents called their vet to put their dog into sleep, the vet expressed huge relief when he saw the dog had terminal cancer.
Then he said, people want to put their dogs into sleep just for fancy and being called in a situation when it was the right thing to do was a nice exception.



It happens a lot. Very disturbing that people think killing a pet is better than trying to rehome, or God forbid taking the responsibility seriously. A pet is family. What if the kids think killing Rover is a reasonable solution to a little inconvenience?


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XFilesGeek
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08 Nov 2019, 7:55 am

Drake wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Fnord wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
... Male "power fantasies" don't get nearly the same amount of criticism that female ones do.
Male "power fantasies" don't get nearly enough criticism, in my opinion.

Personally, I like the Rose Tico character better than Rey. She showed that a woman doesn't have to look like a half-starved ballerina and do back-flips to prove her competence as a human being.


If I'm not mistaken, the actress who played her got chased off Twitter after being constantly harassed by neckbeards.

As for "power fantasies," it just annoys me that movies/shows/books that celebrate blatant machismo are deemed just dandy, but woe betide any movie/show/book that puts "girl power" at the front and center. It's clearly a double-standard.

But it's because it's "girl power". The male ones aren't "man power". Machismo is basically masculinity dialled up to 11, but it's not anti-woman. If it's just power, and it just happens to be a woman who has the power, no one cares, but they have to shine a spotlight on the fact it's a woman. Then have her go emasculating men and send a women good men bad message. If a man had the same spotlight on him and was fighting women, even if they were like skilled ninja assassins or something, and doing the equivalent, that would turn people off too.

Of course, you can have a man get emasculated by a woman in a film and it be well written and enhance the product, maybe to teach a lesson to that man, or as some genuine comedic moment, but all too often it's clear that that's not why it's been done. It's wokeness, virtue signalling, if you could smell it it would stink of it, it's not an effort to improve the product.

With Rey, I've only seen the first film, which was well received. I've seen the criticisms of her for that film, but I don't hold them against her. Off the top of my head, I remember the slapping away Finn's hand, but that could just as easily be having survived relying on herself she's not comfortable with help rather than not needing no man. You hear the stories about people coming out of prison not being able to let someone go behind them and such, she's living in a harsh place, it would make sense for her to reflexively reject his hand. The Falcon is a bit of a stretch, but no more than that. This is a universe where ships aren't far off being as common as cars to us. The Kylo fight, I feel there are enough mitigating factors to get away with it, his injuries and the fact he isn't trying to kill her.

I know from watching the first film why the backlash regarding Luke in the second was so strong, because the whole first film builds up the meeting with Luke, and cliffhangers the ending with it. The music choices and gravity they give it are telling you it's going to be great and epic.


The male ones are absolutely "man power" wherein women are reduced to objects that are either "gotten" by the man, or whose role is to support the male character.

You just don't notice it because men being considered stronger and more important than women is ingrained in our culture.


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Wolfram87
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08 Nov 2019, 8:25 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
As for "power fantasies," it just annoys me that movies/shows/books that celebrate blatant machismo are deemed just dandy, but woe betide any movie/show/book that puts "girl power" at the front and center. It's clearly a double-standard.


The Bayonetta-series of games was created by a woman as her vision of a Female Power Fantasy. It got absurd amounts of s**t from the same sort of people who are heaping praise on the new Star Wars films, because she wasn't Female Power Fantasying right.


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naturalplastic
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08 Nov 2019, 12:30 pm

It all depends.

On what you consider woke. And what you do with your wokeness.

Agree with what Obama is saying in the clip posted by Ezra.



Drake
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08 Nov 2019, 12:51 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Drake wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Fnord wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
... Male "power fantasies" don't get nearly the same amount of criticism that female ones do.
Male "power fantasies" don't get nearly enough criticism, in my opinion.

Personally, I like the Rose Tico character better than Rey. She showed that a woman doesn't have to look like a half-starved ballerina and do back-flips to prove her competence as a human being.


If I'm not mistaken, the actress who played her got chased off Twitter after being constantly harassed by neckbeards.

As for "power fantasies," it just annoys me that movies/shows/books that celebrate blatant machismo are deemed just dandy, but woe betide any movie/show/book that puts "girl power" at the front and center. It's clearly a double-standard.

But it's because it's "girl power". The male ones aren't "man power". Machismo is basically masculinity dialled up to 11, but it's not anti-woman. If it's just power, and it just happens to be a woman who has the power, no one cares, but they have to shine a spotlight on the fact it's a woman. Then have her go emasculating men and send a women good men bad message. If a man had the same spotlight on him and was fighting women, even if they were like skilled ninja assassins or something, and doing the equivalent, that would turn people off too.

Of course, you can have a man get emasculated by a woman in a film and it be well written and enhance the product, maybe to teach a lesson to that man, or as some genuine comedic moment, but all too often it's clear that that's not why it's been done. It's wokeness, virtue signalling, if you could smell it it would stink of it, it's not an effort to improve the product.

With Rey, I've only seen the first film, which was well received. I've seen the criticisms of her for that film, but I don't hold them against her. Off the top of my head, I remember the slapping away Finn's hand, but that could just as easily be having survived relying on herself she's not comfortable with help rather than not needing no man. You hear the stories about people coming out of prison not being able to let someone go behind them and such, she's living in a harsh place, it would make sense for her to reflexively reject his hand. The Falcon is a bit of a stretch, but no more than that. This is a universe where ships aren't far off being as common as cars to us. The Kylo fight, I feel there are enough mitigating factors to get away with it, his injuries and the fact he isn't trying to kill her.

I know from watching the first film why the backlash regarding Luke in the second was so strong, because the whole first film builds up the meeting with Luke, and cliffhangers the ending with it. The music choices and gravity they give it are telling you it's going to be great and epic.


The male ones are absolutely "man power" wherein women are reduced to objects that are either "gotten" by the man, or whose role is to support the male character.

You just don't notice it because men being considered stronger and more important than women is ingrained in our culture.

I do see that. And I don't see anything wrong with that. The lead is the star. Everyone else is supporting cast, male or female. You can have films where it's a team effort, but what's wrong with having a single hero protagonist? Men just fit this role more naturally so there's more of them in it. Is a female support really any less important? Could the lead have succeeded without her? Can't women enjoy a fantasy too of being swept off their feet by a hero?

Being female can still work for an action hero. In Kick Ass, Hit Girl is an 11 year old (I think) girl, and she's flying around slicing people up, gunning people down, and it works because she's choreographed to use her athleticism and small size to be elusive and kill quickly and efficiently while not taking hits. She's not standing there trading blows with grown men, the men are trying to shoot her or get their hands on her and she's not letting them.



She is damn good in that movie.



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08 Nov 2019, 5:51 pm

Youtube recommendation coming through big. Look at her go! :mrgreen:



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08 Nov 2019, 5:59 pm

Using one character as a 'reward' for another character's success essentially makes objectifies the character being used as the 'reward'. The fact that the character being rewarded is always male and the character being objectified in this is always female makes the entire game offensive and sexist in nature.

Victory should be its own reward.