What is wrong with Political Correctness in some cases?

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^^^

Okay, Get Some More Schooling then:

"Contrary to popular belief, scientific research helps us better understand the unique and real transgender experience. Specifically, through three subjects: (1) genetics, (2) neurobiology and (3) endocrinology. So, hold onto your parts, whatever they may be. It’s time for “the talk.”

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BIOLOGICAL SEX: HOW YOU GET IT
Nearly everyone in middle school biology learned that if you’ve got XX chromosomes, you’re a female; if you’ve got XY, you’re a male. This tired simplification is great for teaching the importance of chromosomes but betrays the true nature of biological sex. The popular belief that your sex arises only from your chromosomal makeup is wrong. The truth is, your biological sex isn’t carved in stone, but a living system with the potential for change.
Why? Because biological sex is far more complicated than XX or XY (or XXY, or just X). XX individuals could present with male gonads. XY individuals can have ovaries. How? Through a set of complex genetic signals that, in the course of a human’s development, begins with a small group of cells called the bipotential primordium and a gene called SRY.
A newly fertilized embryo initially develops without any indication of its sex. At around five weeks, a group of cells clump together to form the bipotential primordium. These cells are neither male nor female but have the potential to turn into testes, ovaries or neither. After the primordium forms, SRY—a gene on the Y chromosome discovered in 1990, thanks to the participation of intersex XX males and XY females—might be activated.*
Though it is still not fully understood, we know SRY plays a role in pushing the primordium toward male gonads. But SRY is not a simple on/off switch, it’s a precisely timed start signal, the first chord of the “male gonad” symphony. A group of cells (instrument sections) must all express SRY (notes of the chord), at the right time (conductor?). Without that first chord, the embryo will play a different symphony: female gonads, or something in between.

And there’s more! While brief and coordinated SRY-activation initiates the process of male-sex differentiation, genes like DMRT1 and FOXL2 maintain certain sexual characteristics during adulthood. If these genes stop functioning, gonads can change and exhibit characteristics of the opposite sex. Without these players constantly active, certain components of your biological sex can change.
There’s still more! SRY, DMRT1, and FOXL2 aren’t directly involved with other aspects of biological sex. Secondary sex characteristics—penis, vagina, appearance, behavior—arise later, from hormones, environment, experience, and genes interacting. To explore this, we move from the body to the brain, where biology becomes behavior.
THE BRAIN: WHERE STUFF GETS “MADE UP”

When the biology gets too complicated, some point to differences between brains of males and females as proof of the sexual binary. But a half century of empirical research has repeatedly challenged the idea that brain biology is simply XY = male brain or XX = female brain. In other words, there is no such thing as “the male brain” or “the female brain.” This is not to say that there are no observable differences. Certain brain characteristics can be sexually dimorphic: observable average differences across males and females. But like biological sex, pointing to “brain sex” as the explanation for these differences is wrong and hinders scientific research.
Let’s just take the most famous example of sexual dimorphism in the brain: the sexually dimorphic nucleus of the preoptic area (sdnPOA). This tiny brain area with a disproportionately sized name is slightly larger in males than in females. But it’s unclear if that size difference indicates distinctly wired sdnPOAs in males versus females, or if—as with the bipotential primordium—the same wiring is functionally weighted toward opposite ends of a spectrum. Throw in the observation that the sdnPOA in gay men is closer to that of straight females than straight males, and the idea of “the male brain” falls apart.

Trying to link sex, sex chromosomes and sexual dimorphism is also useless for understanding other brain properties. The hormone vasopressin is dimorphic but is linked to both behavioral differences and similarities across sex. Simply put, the idea of a sexual binary isn’t scientifically useful, and nowhere is this more obvious than in the brain. It also happens that transgender people have the brains to prove it.
It’s easy to see sexual dimorphisms and conclude that the brain is binary; easy, but wrong. Thanks to the participation of trans people in research, we have expanded our understanding of how brain structure, sex and gender interact. For some properties like brain volume and connectivity, trans people possessed values in between those typical of cisgender males and females, both before and after transitioning. Another study found that for certain brain regions, trans individuals appeared similar to cis-individuals with the same gender identity. In that same study, researchers found specific areas of the brain where trans people seemed closer to those with the same assigned sex at birth. Other researchers discovered that trans people have unique structural differences from cis-individuals.
THE BODY AND THE BRAIN AND THE HORMONES BETWIXT
As if the brain and body weren’t complicated enough, another biological factor influences the expression of biological sex in an individual: hormones. Anyone who has gone through puberty has felt the power of hormones firsthand. But like all things biology, hormones cannot be limited to the pubescent idea of “estrogen = female and testosterone = male.”
For one thing, all humans possess levels of estrogen, progesterone and testosterone with sex differences not as prominent as is popularly thought. During infancy and prepubescence, these hormones sit in a bipotential range, with no marked sex differences. Through puberty, certain sex hormones like estrogen, progesterone and testosterone become weighted toward one end of a spectrum. But in developed adults, estrogen and progesterone levels are on average similar between males and nonpregnant females. And while testosterone exhibits the largest difference between adult males and females, heritability studies have found that genetics (X vs. Y) only explains about 56 percent of an individual’s testosterone, suggesting many other influences on hormones. Furthermore, measurements of sex hormones levels in any one individual wildly vary across the range of “average” values regardless of how close or spread apart you take the measurements. The binary sex model not only insufficiently predicts the presence of hormones but is useless in describing factors that influence them.

Environmental, social and behavioral factors also influence hormones in both males and females, complicating the idea that hormones determine sex. Progesterone changes in response to typically male-coded social situations that involve dominance and competition. Estrogen, typically linked to feminine-coded behavior, also plays a role in masculine-coded dominance/power social scenarios. Though testosterone levels are different between males and females on average, many external factors can change these levels, such as whether or not a person is raising a child. Differing testosterone levels in both men and women can predict certain parenting behaviors. Even the content of a sexual fantasy can change testosterone levels. The fact is, behavior and environment—like cultural gender norms and expectations—influence sex-related hormones, and the biology of the body and brain itself.

SCIENCE AND SOCIETY: BETTER TOGETHER
While this is a small overview, the science is clear and conclusive: sex is not binary, transgender people are real. It is time that we acknowledge this. Defining a person’s sex identity using decontextualized “facts” is unscientific and dehumanizing. The trans experience provides essential insights into the science of sex and scientifically demonstrates that uncommon and atypical phenomena are vital for a successful living system. Even the scientific endeavor itself is quantifiably better when it is more inclusive and diverse. So, no matter what a pundit, politician or internet troll may say, trans people are an indispensable part of our living reality.
Transgender humans represent the complexity and diversity that are fundamental features of life, evolution and nature itself. That is a fact."


https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

If you're talking to me, would you use a simpler way of making your point?

ToughDiamond, I appreciate a clear, conclusive explanation as to why as well.

It seems though that the waters are being muddied and what's really happening is a debate on semantics but if logical debate and argument is going to happen then we all must agree on what words mean.

Now, when I'm talking gender. I'm talking biological gender and gender and sex are synonymous with each other. This is all gender means nothing more. Because of certain biological differences on average you can't have biological men compete in women's sports because of testosterone men are biologically stronger then women. There is no equity in having mixed gender competitions in light of these facts.

Now, there is the social aspect in which men can have feminine traits and women can have masculine traits. I don't dispute this. There are some women who are tomboyish and vice versa. Now, repeat after me! THIS IS NOT GENDER! THIS IS NOT GENDER! THIS IS NOT GENDER! Things like expecting young boys to like trucks and young ladies to like pink dresses is a social construction but those things are GENDER! These young boys are still young boys and these young ladies are still young ladies. Social expectations in a society does not change a person's gender. Social expectations in a society does not change a person's gender. Social expectations in a society does not change a person's gender.

This is much much worse then all of the modern day Christian doctrines that are never open to question.

I never thought I would see the day that leftists, socialists, liberals would be even more dogmatic and have even more censorship then right wingers and the Christian fundamentalists.

Liberalism, leftism, etc is supposed to be tolerant and open to seeking truth yet today it's even more dogmatic and even more zealous then the religious right.

The Biology of Gender is Complex.
You Can’t Water it Down Anymore
Than Physics. Let’s Make This part
Crystal Clear, This Privately Owned
Internet Site Supports The Scientific
Biological Facts That Transgender
Folks Are Real And Provides Non-Binary
Categories For Folks Who Neither
Identify as Male Or Female Gender.

It’s Against The Rules Here to
Deny Their Realities. It’s Both
Ignorant, Harmful, And Against

The Rules Here

So: Stop It.

If You Wanna
Insist That
Transgender
Folks Are Not Real,

Go Somewhere Where
That Is Allowed; One
Of The Moderators
Here Has Already
Made it Clear That
Sex And Gender Are

Not Synonymous
As Science Agrees….

And Yes Ignorant
Folks will Disagree.

The Biology is Clear,
For Those With the
Ability To Understand it.

I think it's perfectly possible to be skeptical about a supposed difference between sex and gender without being against trans people. A biological man claims to be a woman. Fine, that's what the biological man seems to think. I'm not so sure, is all. That doesn't mean I'm going to get aggressive. Even if I were 100% sure the biological man was simply a man (which obviously I'm not), I'd see no reason for either of us to get aggressive about it.

You can be a father. And you can be a father.

You can be a biological father. Or you can be an adoptive father. Take on the role, and take on the status, of being a father to a child even if you didnt sire the child.

So by analogy you could think of gender the same way. Being a male usually coincides with being biologically male, but it can be seperate, and same with female.

Just a thought.

Actually as somebody with a biology degree, the jury is still out on the matter of sex = biology. There is currently research underway on whether LGBTQI is genetically determined and if there are differences in brain structure. Given the existence of gender disphoria as a psychiatric condition there is good evidence to suggest sex is biology.

Last edited by cyberdad on 25 Apr 2022, 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Political correctness was originally an antidote against wanton discrimination and prejudice that was a hallmark of America more than any other European nation (except perhaps Nazi Germany and one could argue Peron's Argentina and South Africa's apartheid).

PC in schools was enacted because of Brown Vs Board of Education in an attempt to end the evil segregation of US schools by race. The current resurgence in the anti-CRT movement among white Americans is merely a continuation of opposition to this legal moment in US history.

PC in schools and workplaces has also been enacted to protect the disabled, LGBTQI and other minorities.

It never ceases to amaze me how "smart" people on this forum choose to be "dumb" by claiming they are against PC when a lot of it was enacted to protect and uplift people (like those on the spectrum).

I don't blame Americans, after all you have been brainwashed for centuries about guns, god, communism, gays, blacks and various other stupid beliefs. it may take another hundred years to get it out of your system.

@Cyber

I get what you're saying, and I actually pretty much agree with it, but...please...

The United States of America is a western country dominated by people of european descent. But it is not a "European country".

And neither is Argentina, nor South Africa. Even though both of those are also "western", and Argentina is mostly White, and South Africa at one time was dominated by its White minority.

A "European country" is a country on ...guess what landmass? Europe!

Europe stretches from the Atlantic eastward to the Ural Mountains in Russia. Includes the British Isles. And is everything north of the mediterranean, and west of the Aegean.

If a country is not part of Europe then it is not a "European country".

Countries settled by Europeans but far from Europe (Australia, USA, Chile, etc) cant really be called "European countries".

I dont know... maybe thats a local convention in your country of Australia. To call countries far from Europe, but settled by Europeans, "European countries". Or maybe its just you being sloppy in word usage, but either way its confusing to us non Aussies.

Last edited by naturalplastic on 25 Apr 2022, 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

i Think it's 'Perfectly Possible' to Be assertive enough to Point out of the Rules of this Internet Site to A Fellow
Member, When Their Claims Associated With Other Members Participating on this Site Become Reasonably
Offensive; And Clearly Assertively Ask Them to Stop the Offensive Remarks Without 'Tattling' Using the
'Report Button'; There Are Limited Moderators Here; It Kinda Helps them out, If Done Tactfully Enough.

i Have Non-Binary Relatives As that Relates to Male And Female Genders; It's Easy for me to Remember
Their Realities and Their Struggles With the Ignorance of my Local Culture When it Comes to Their Realities
And Struggles; And Additional, LGBQT Differences As Well, Already Discussed In this Thread, Earlier.

This Internet Site Has Rules to protect LGBQT Folks From Folks Who Deny Their Realities Are Real.

i Don't Think You've Crossed That Line into the Offensive Area; Yet repeated Assertions that
There is No Such Thing Other than Male and Female Gender Can Be Viewed As Reasonably
Offensive As Applicable to Folks Experiencing Those Realities and Struggles, Including

The Folks Here Who Openly Identify as Non-Binary Folks Or Transgender; It Gets

Aggressive When Folks Make Life Threats to Folks Working For Merriam-Webster
For Updating Gender Related Definitions as That Issue is Currently On-Tap in the
News And Current Events Section of This Internet Site; There is No one i am

Aware of Who Identifies As Non-Binary And Or Transgender in This Thread;

Yet That Doesn't Mean They Aren't Listening And Would Consider This Place
An Unwelcome Place For them to Participate; The Idea of Rules is to Make

This An Internet Site Where They Can Feel Comfortable Enough to Participate...

Vigorously Denying their Realities as Transgender or Non-Binary Folks is not A Path that Reasonably Works;

Yes, there is Room For 'Politically Correct Rules' When it Comes to Supporting The Struggles Folks Encounter
in Life Who Are Often So Marginalized In Society By Folks Who Don't Seem to Have the Ability to Understand
Their Realities and Struggles.

i Can't Imagine Anything Much More Offensive Than Folks Suggesting Someone Else's Reality is Not Real.



There Are Also Professionals in The Field of Psychology Who Deny The Reality That There Was Ever A 'Real' Condition of Asperger's Syndrome, ADHD, Or Other Higher Functioning Autism Conditions on the Spectrum, Beyond Labels, Other
than Severest Disorders of Autism; i Don't Think The Person Who is Asserting That the Realities of Transgender Folk's Biological And Environmentally Influenced Realities Are Not Real, Would appreciate it if Someone Came Here Insisting
That Their Realities Are Not Real; It's Not Appropriate on An Internet Site That Supports Those Folks; Issues with Cognitive

Empathy Are Common on the Spectrum; There is Room For A Lot of Patience; And There is Room For Rules too,
To Protect Folks Who Others Might Not Be Able to Understand Are Different From them and The Reasons For It;
i Didn't Have to Go Do

Scientific Research

to Understand
Any Of These
Issues Are Real
in the Real World Around me;

Not All People Are Similarly Gifted...

The Biological And Environmental
Influences Are Very Complex; It's Really
Not Surprising Some Folks Don't See All the Nuances...

And This is Why We Have Rules, in Part, Because of those Challenges

That Just Say, No, Don't Do it; And Of Course For Those Folks Who Don't
Understand the Rules; That Must Be Brought to Their Attention For Their Understanding too.

i See it As Reasonably Offensive, Through the Eyes of Relatives With the REAL LIFE Struggles and Challenges;

It's Not Always Easy for Folks Who have not Ever Even Had Any Close Encounters With Similarly Effected Folks.

i Don't Get the Final Verdict; That's Up to the Moderators; It Might Be Nice if We Don't Have to Involve them...

Last edited by aghogday on 25 Apr 2022, 9:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

This thread is gonna get locked soon...I hear the mod keys jangling...

I will say without equivocation that my views on gender are not going to be WP-friendly. That's why at this point for the sake of this thread that I'm going to let WP folks draw their own conclusions about what I think and not try to argue about it.

I mean, here's the thing, cube: I don't particularly care about PC or LGBTQ+ issues, or disability issues. I care about individual issues. But WrongPlanet is a forum that has these things as a primary focus. If you recall me saying that I'm not going to tolerate anyone in my home telling me what to do or think politically or theologically, you'll understand this works both ways. WP isn't my house. There is an extent to which I can express my views contrary to what is popular or politically correct in the context of WP. But beyond that, as long as I choose to stay here, I choose to follow the rules.

People hate it when I say "victim class" because it could be seen as a derogatory term referring to anyone who is different in any way who has been bullied or perceived to have been bullied for ANY reason. But it is a general term referring to any greedy or envious person expressing entitlement to certain things they don't earn or deserve. And because for the sake of WP those are legit discussions if unpleasant, the mods graciously give me and others a little latitude. Even I occasionally get warnings. I stop just short of saying gender isn't a thing. It's not that I don't agree with you. Just be mindful of where you are.

^^^

Good Advice.

Key Here is if
We Are Able to
Help Each Other Follow the Rules;

The Thread Doesn't Get Locked
And Potentially Valuable Other Views May Be Perused...

I agree with everything you say. Similar to being in a different country. By being there, you agree to follow their rules.

With that said and following your advice to being mindful I'm going to start bowing out of this conversation of this thread.

AngelRho, we don't agree on everything but I think you are a awesome guy and I do love the music you have played.

But I haven't asserted that. I've explained my honest opinion, as an opinion, with the qualification that I could be wrong.

Vigorously Denying their Realities as Transgender or Non-Binary Folks is not A Path that Reasonably Works;
But what I said was hardly vigorous denial.

i Can't Imagine Anything Much More Offensive Than Folks Suggesting Someone Else's Reality is Not Real.
It's possible to get a lot more offensive than merely suggesting a thing. Would it be the height of offensiveness for an atheist to own their lack of belief in deities if there were a religionist in the room? I have to tolerate religionists saying they know there's a god. I'd rather they stuck to just saying they believed there was and admitted they could be wrong, but I'm used to the fact that they don't always bother.

i Don't Get the Final Verdict; That's Up to the Moderators; It Might Be Nice if We Don't Have to Involve them...
You seem rather vague on this idea of reporting me. Do so if you feel you must.

To Be Clear, i Wasn't referring to You, Specifically;

i Said, "i Don't Think You've Crossed That Line into the Offensive Area."

The Situation With the Other Member Has Already Been Addressed and Resolved.

i Haven't Reported Any Person on this Site; And i Don't Have Any Inclination to Do So;

i Was Hoping We Could Resolve the Issue Amongst Ourselves; And We Did; Not All Folks

Find The Same Things Offensive; That's A Given, As Humans Do Perceive Their Realities Differently.

As you began your post by quoting me (and only me), it did rather look as if you were referring to me. Agreed that you did say that about not thinking I'd crossed a line, though you also said other things that might be seen to suggest the opposite.

More generally, yes, different people get offended by different things. I just wish nobody ever got offended by hearing that somebody else isn't convinced about a particular assertion. That way, it might make it easier for them to have a conversation about it.