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Honey69
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03 Apr 2023, 9:22 am



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS_e33xOrVg


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Honey69
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03 Apr 2023, 9:13 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
I was raised Episcopal, Robin Williams said it was Catholic-lite, half the guilt.
I’ve heard people call Lutherans Catholic-lite.


Actually, Catholics and Lutherans spent a lot of years slaughtering each other on the European mainland, while Catholics and Episcopalians/Anglicans/Puritans murdered each other in Merry Old England.


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Honey69
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04 Apr 2023, 8:04 am

Now that I think about it--it was after Josiah had gone on his rampage, and destroyed everything and everyone that had anything to do with Baal or Asherah, that Judah fell to Babylon.

There was a similar situation when the Nazis put so much effort and resources into exterminating various people that they didn't have enough left over to fend off the advancing Soviet army.

When they got around to putting the finishing touches on the Old Testament, the writers were insisting on absolute monolatry, and wanted to make Asherah look bad. Yahweh could do all the evil things he wanted, no problem. Asherah was harmless. She never threatened anyone with this or that if they failed to measure up. She just ended up being the monolatrists' scapegoat.

They would have been much better off just letting Yahweh keep his Asherah.


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klanka
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04 Apr 2023, 8:16 am

In the bible there is a history book called judges.

It chronicles how Israel turned away from pagan gods and turned to the true living God.....but soon after got lax and returned to paganism.

It happens several times.

It really happened but it's also an allegory for how we all sin , we're all unfaithful lazy and need help.
So , because of the theme of the book I don't believe God liked this pagan god.
God liking asherah doesn't fit in with the themes of the whole bible. So I don't think it was edited.



TwilightPrincess
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04 Apr 2023, 8:20 am

klanka wrote:
In the bible there is a history book called judges.

It chronicles how Israel turned away from pagan gods and turned to the true living God.....but soon after got lax and returned to paganism.

It happens several times.

It really happened but it's also an allegory for how we all sin , we're all unfaithful lazy and need help.
So , because of the theme of the book I don't believe God liked this pagan god.
God liking asherah doesn't fit in with the themes of the whole bible. So I don't think it was edited.

How do you know it “really happened?”

How do you know that the Bible hasn’t been edited over the centuries to make it appear to work together?

The Bible is a collection of books, not a single, cohesive narrative written by one person.


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04 Apr 2023, 8:48 am

The Bible has been stepped on like street drugs.
I’m sure people added things or removed
stuff.Human nature.


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klanka
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04 Apr 2023, 9:18 am

The Jewish scriptures of the old testament were preserved because they had this system of adding up all the letters in a sentence and using that number to make sure it is correct when it is copied.

Historians say that the old testament and new were preserved very well and it's the document that has the most historical accuracy because the bible has the most copies on record of any document ever.

The oldest copy of Plato goes back to about 800ad
https://www.worldhistory.org/image/1081 ... Cappadocia.

Whereas the new testament's oldest known copy is from 200ad



Last edited by klanka on 04 Apr 2023, 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

TwilightPrincess
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04 Apr 2023, 9:25 am

Actually, no, most respectable historians don’t say that. There’s a fascinating and informative course from Yale on the Old Testament that goes into insertions and sources over the centuries. I recommend watching all lectures from the beginning. There’s also a good one on the New Testament, but I’ve not watched it yet.



I also recommend reading How to Read the Bible by James Kugel. For the New Testament, anything by Bart Ehrman is good.


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Honey69
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04 Apr 2023, 10:26 am

klanka wrote:
The Jewish scriptures of the old testament were preserved because they had this system of adding up all the letters in a sentence and using that number to make sure it is correct when it is copied.

Historians say that the old testament and new were preserved very well and it's the document that has the most historical accuracy because the bible has the most copies on record of any document ever.

The oldest copy of Plato goes back to about 800ad
https://www.worldhistory.org/image/1081 ... Cappadocia.

Whereas the new testament's oldest known copy is from 200ad


The Jewish scriptures aren't actual history. (Neither is the New Testament). Herodotus was an excellent historian. The Bible authors were writing to promote a particular view--not to present history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Judges

Quote:
The Deuteronomistic History

A statement repeated throughout the epilogue, "In those days there was no king in Israel" implies a date in the monarchic period for the redaction (editing) of Judges. Twice, this statement is accompanied with the statement "every man did that which was right in his own eyes", implying that the redactor is pro-monarchy, and the epilogue, in which the tribe of Judah is assigned a leadership role, implies that this redaction took place in Judah.

Since the second half of the 20th century most scholars have agreed with Martin Noth's thesis that the books of Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings form parts of a single work. Noth maintained that the history was written in the early Exilic period (6th century BCE) in order to demonstrate how Israel's history was worked out in accordance with the theology expressed in the book of Deuteronomy (which thus provides the name "Deuteronomistic"). Noth believed that this history was the work of a single author, living in the mid-6th century BCE, selecting, editing and composing from his sources to produce a coherent work. Frank Moore Cross later proposed that an early version of the history was composed in Jerusalem in Josiah's time (late 7th century BCE); this first version, Dtr1, was then revised and expanded to create a second edition, that identified by Noth, and which Cross labelled Dtr2.


Scholars agree that the Deuteronomists' hand can be seen in Judges through the book's cyclical nature: the Israelites fall into idolatry, God punishes them for their sins with oppression by foreign peoples, the Israelites cry out to God for help, and God sends a judge to deliver them from the foreign oppression. After a period of peace, the cycle recurs.


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04 Apr 2023, 10:46 am

Quote:
Appeal to Tradition or argumentum ad antiquitatem (also known as ‘appeal to common practice’) is a common informal fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that something is better or correct simply because it is older, traditional, or ‘has always been done.’

https://yandoo.wordpress.com/2014/01/09 ... tradition/

Just because the Bible is old doesn’t mean that it’s valid or that it wasn’t edited/altered previously or continuously over centuries.


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Honey69
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04 Apr 2023, 11:30 am

Still, I wonder what the male temple prostitutes were offering

1 Kings 14:24 wrote:

and there were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations that the Lord drove out before the people of Israel.



Other parts of the ancient world had female temple prostitutes. But, Judah had men.

I'm wondering, since it was generally the ladies who worshiped Asherah, whether the male cult prostitutes might have been providing services to female worshipers. :scratch:


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04 Apr 2023, 12:46 pm

The male temple prostitutes offered services such as opening that stuck lid on the jar of pickles or mowing the lawn.


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klanka
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04 Apr 2023, 12:47 pm

That's just one of the lectures,she seems to be comparing the bible to other myths. I'll have to watch the other videos to see if she proves the scriptures have been changed.

I think female prostitutes were already around as one of the tribal elders Judah thinks he is sleeping with one.



Honey69
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05 Apr 2023, 3:53 pm

And, here we are. A hymn to Asherah.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEpo_mVa2UY


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DoniiMann
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07 Apr 2023, 5:09 pm

It's my understanding that the Old Testament wasn't written down at all in the beginning. Theirs was an oral tradition. It was eventually committed to paper when it became obvious that an oral tradition spread across their entire culture, when faced with so much outside pressure (Babylonians, Romans, etc), made the oral tradition a little less reliable. Of course, then you've got to wonder what baggage the collectors, collators, and calligraphers bring to the process.

I mean, look at Norse, Irish, and Welsh mythologies. Time, distance, and factional agendas and ideologies mean we know that their stories aren't exactly what the oldies believed.

So too the Old Testament. Oral or pen, that collection spanned a long time. We see elements of polytheism and henotheism in it. Then monotheism. It would fit with the idea of the Israelis becoming monotheists (probably around the Babylonian Captivity), rather than always being so.

It's entirely reasonable to fit Asherah into their world.


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08 Apr 2023, 6:42 am

Misslizard wrote:
The male temple prostitutes offered services such as opening that stuck lid on the jar of pickles or mowing the lawn.


Are they still hiring? :lol:

"Oh yes baby yessss!! Seeing you opening the pickles jar turns me on!"

Sounds easy.