What do you believe about Jesus?

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I have this from earlier, in addition to the two quotes I gave you from Papias and Polycarp who were both close friends of the author John.

Historians measure the accuracy of a document by looking at how many copies they have, and how close those copies are to the original dates. The longer it is, the better chance of myths, legends, and inaccuracies developing. For example, we have no original copies of Beowulf, only a few copies that we know were changed up for religious purposes, so we have very little faith in the originality of today's copies of the epic. We have 643 copies of The Iliad, and about 95% of it is the same, so we feel comfortable saying that today's version of the Iliad is very much the same as Homer's. For the New Testament, we have almost ten times as many with about 99.5% of it being the same, as well as over 50,000 fragments. The distance, too, between the earliest copy we have (130 AD) is about the distance from the life of Jesus as the presidency of Theodore Roosevelt. The 200 AD copy would be about the same distance as between now and the Missouri Compromise. And of course, even after that stretch of time of about 100 years between now and Roosevelt, if someone went around claiming that Theodore Roosevelt was God, we could still pull out an abundance of resources and say, "No he wasn't, and here's why." There is too much evidence and not enough chronological distance from his life to allow someone to even hope of successfully deceiving the public about Roosevelt being God. What if we wanted to god around saying that George Washington was God? It still couldn't be done. If someone wanted to come out and say that Jesus didn't really perform miracles, they would have to sift through the witness of thousands of people who did see Him do miracle. If He didn't, then why didn't these Gospel publications just die off if no one ever saw Him do a miracle? Why wasn't there a lack of evidence to prove His deity? We talk about the Missouri Compromise like we know for sure what happened, and even further-back events such as the early life of Washington and the Revolutionary War or the French and Indian War, or even the lives of the Puritans coming to America in 1620, almost 400 years ago. Getting the real details on Jesus (or the authors of the Gospels) would not have been hard.

About the authors... if Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did not write their accounts like they claimed they did, why was that conspiracy not unmasked at the proper time? The life of Jesus shook Israel to its core. In the midst of this sudden cultural change with this new rising sect called Christianity, why is it that no one disproved Matthew, Mark, Luke or John writing their accounts? We have some very early manuscripts, indicating that the authors were very close time-wise to the events. If these men had made up Christ, and the authors themselves were questionable characters, why did no one prove this? If they were, it could have been done. There are many who would have been glad to do it, because Jesus was very much hated by the religious leaders and several others. The Gospel was not readily accepted and welcome with open arms. There was every reason for the conspirators of this new religion to back out, admit they lied and act like it was all a bad dream, but they never would, even under pain of death.

make believe

HA! We have more atheists who have voted in the poll!

apparently you dont know what second hand information means

anyways like the other argument i was having about the old testement ripping off storys from erlier people, its tired. and so if you cant see what im talking about now ive lossed intrest sorry

however i wont place my life in danger of trying to conform it to teachings where an author can't even be autheticated, plus i dont remember exactley but two of the books are almost identical to each other wich would mean they had the same author. so if you have two authors for the same book theres no way each of the 4 men wrote 1 book each

having faith is alright but im not gonna worry my life into a tizzy because im being a sinning bastard and have a chance that those men didnt even write those books in the first place. if you want to, good luck with that

To me Jesus is exactly who he said he was, no more no less. He can't be a good teacher and not be who he claims. because he is either who he says he is or is a crazy liar. you cant be a crazy liar and a good teacher.


and most people who claim Jesus was a good teacher have no intention of following what he teaches anyway.

I believe that Jesus meant what he said when he said I am The way the Truth and the Life no one comes to the Father except through me.

If it wasn't for Jesus I would be dead today. I would have finally succeeded in my suicide attempts. My life was one big giant nightmare that I dreaded waking up to every day. I only recently found out that I might very well have AS, even scored 177 out of 200 on the aspsie quiz. It wasn't until I found out that I really was fundamentally different from the rest of the world that a lot of what I went through made sense. God was able to give me a new perspective on the world and on what it really is to be human. by studying the scriptures and by studying Judaism (by which you can really understand what the scriptures are talking about) I was able to understand what makes me and other men tick inside and how God had made us. and how we blew it and instead wanted to become more like two legged animals than human beings.

I only recently found out about AS but that doesn't explain all of my problems. The Word of God and his Spirit has enabled me to become so much closer to a whole Human being than I have ever been. I will never be "normal" But I will be able to live just how God intended me to live which is not feeling like a reject that exists only for the world to spit on and take advantage of.

If anyone really wants to look deep into the inner workings of man I would recommend a book titled "the Beast the Crouches at the door" by Rabbi David Fohrman ISBN: 978-1-932687-79-8
It takes you through Genesis in a way that will open you up to whats really going on and give you the story behind the story that we all think we are so familiar with and exposes the deepest inner workings of what it is to be Human.

Alright, well, it's been pleasant discussion with you. Thank you.



Wow, sounds like you and I are on the same page, man! That's pretty much how I felt when I learned about it, but I realized that God could help me make so much of it anyways. And I am able to function very well around people because of Him. No, I doubt I'll ever be "normal," it's been obvious since I was born that I had a slightly autistic inclination (the only reason I wasn't diagnosed with AS is because American medicals didn't know enough about it), but I've been able to pull through anyways. Overall, God has been very good to me.

Jesus Christ is someone we actually know very little about. I wonder how he would have felt with today's church?

You know, he's still a curiosity to me. I don't know but he certainly got people's attention and has and is forever talked about. I don't know, but I love his philosophy that some so-called Christians don't practice which is humility to one and another.

I agree with Jesus, he,s the son of God.
But you didnt have that on your poll?

That's what's meant by the first option.

No, you first option says "God in the form of Man"

Jesus never claimed to be God, he stated he was in subjection to God, the firstborn of all creation, the "Son of God"
Just like you are the son of your father, but you are not your father.

I chose the first option.

I've never really heard of someone believing Jesus was the son of God yet not God Himself, usually from a Christian perspective, the two are inseparable, so that's why I didn't have that up there, and my assumption for the first option was the Biblically-assumed perspective of Jesus [ie. Jesus=God, God in the form of a human]. As for the claim about being God (to name a few)...

Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. [referring to Christ's birth]

John 10:30
I and my Father are one. [meaning Jesus and God are the same entity]

John 10:33
"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Philipians 2:5-6
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped...

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

How about the Jews, (who where the only people to "see" God and where told sepicifically he was "One" as oppossed to the Egyptian pagan trinity gods) and Islam, both of which mock Christendoms worship of a trinity.

The scriptures you quoted, perhaps you should read a few more verses to get the context more.

Phillipians 2 goes on top say " PHIL 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

PHIL 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

PHIL 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So God exalted him, not himself.

John 10;30 I and the Father are one, doesnt nessesarily prove they are the same person, maybe it means they are in union by having the same person, especially in view of the scripture elsewhere where Jesus says to the diciples that he is one with them.

John 10:33 it is the jews that are saying Jesus is claiming to be God, read on further and you will see Jesus calls himself the son of God, not God

JN 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

JN 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

JN 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

JN 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

JN 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

JN 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

JN 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

You will also note Jesus said God "sent" him into the world.

Some other scriptures that rather than just words which can be misunderstood, we see scenes such as this one in the book of Daniel which occurs after Jesus returns to Heaven AN 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

DAN 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

DAN 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

DAN 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

DAN 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

DAN 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The Ancient of days is God, the son of man that came with clouds of heaven is Jesus who is given the kingdom due to his faithfullness on earth.

And look what Jesus does with said Kingdom after the 1000 years :-
"1COR 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1COR 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1COR 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1COR 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1COR 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

He gives the Kingdom back to God when all things are subued and then Jesus himself subjects himself to God.

I could show you pages and pages that show Jesus is not God, but a god, that is, Gods son, just as Jesus himslef claimed and the voice out of heaven at his baptism also confermed.

But it depends on who you want to worship and belive, God and Jesus, or the Trinity Sun worshipper, Constantine, the first Pope who ushered in "the Great Apostacy" the Apostles said would come.

I prefer to think that Mr. Samael was the first to be created.

Yes, I'm "horseing around", or something.

Total % of people who voted that they believe Jesus actually existed, ( in some form of real life or other), is 75% as of today; and the % who voted for "other" ( which probably means "didn't exist") is 25%.

Total number of posters on thread believing Jesus existed at some point for real: 25 as of today, the total number not sure: 5, and number of people posting who don't believe he existed: 8.

Am very surprised by how Christian the majority of people on wp are. Believing the Bible to this extent is almost incredible considering how atheist the forum seems most of the time!

I think a new poll is needed which lists the non-biblical version of events as a serious poll option, not just as "other".

That sums it up for me as well. The decision made 300 years later
was apparently done because Emperor Constantine was fed up of
all the arguments between different factions of the church and decided
to put it to a vote.Once the vote was accepted,anyone who disagreed
could be put to death.