Paganism is our native religion
Whats amazing to me about Hinduism is that the Hindu patheon has INFINITELY MANY GODS!
Countably infinite IIRC. So ANY deity from ANY pantheon an be added to the Hindu pantheon, including Jesus Christ for example . Ive always wondered which deities besides Kali were Dravidian Gods incorperated into the Aryan Religion. Now to equate paganism with feminism is rather ridiculuous. I think what Chaotica meant in general is polytheism. I dont consider modern religions like Wicca to be true pagan polytheism because they borrow symbols and concepts from Kabbalism which of course is MONOTheistic. Some polytheistic religions were Extremely patriarchal and violent-like Asatru(teutonic paganism).
The Romans were pagan for centuries and treated women FAR worse than they're treated in modern America(which is mostly but NOT soley christian).
Also all this talk about indo-european influences and Aryans is just plain uneducated, Dna tests show that the so called Dravidian and Aryan races of India are one and the same and are more closely related to the Chinese than indo-european people. And despite some so called "theory's" there is no proof that the Aryans ever managed to successfully invade India in ancient history as All harrapan ruins show no sign of war. The closest thing to it was the much later Islamic invasion. The small percentage of Indians with indo-european blood are mostly descended from when the British ruled India.
Can I have some sources please???
You're claim about Aryans being closer to (chinese)mongoloids is 100% HOGWASH!
Indo-Aryans are racially and linguistically caucasian. Dravidians however, are NEITHER caucasian nor mongoloid in origin.
In fact, the Dravidians are considered to be a NEGROID people. It turns out that the first human settlers to south and southeast asia were negroid peoples who left africa and migrated into southern asia through the arabian pennisula. Dravidians are genetically closer to australian aboriginees than to chinese or indo-aryans.
Also all this talk about indo-european influences and Aryans is just plain uneducated, Dna tests show that the so called Dravidian and Aryan races of India are one and the same and are more closely related to the Chinese than indo-european people. And despite some so called "theory's" there is no proof that the Aryans ever managed to successfully invade India in ancient history as All harrapan ruins show no sign of war. The closest thing to it was the much later Islamic invasion. The small percentage of Indians with indo-european blood are mostly descended from when the British ruled India.
Can I have some sources please???
You're claim about Aryans being closer to (chinese)mongoloids is 100% HOGWASH!
Indo-Aryans are racially and linguistically caucasian. Dravidians however, are NEITHER caucasian nor mongoloid in origin.
In fact, the Dravidians are considered to be a NEGROID people. It turns out that the first human settlers to south and southeast asia were negroid peoples who left africa and migrated into southern asia through the arabian pennisula. Dravidians are genetically closer to australian aboriginees than to chinese or indo-aryans.
i never said Aryans were closer to Chinese, i said the majority of Indians are. the majority of Indians are not related to indo-european or aboriginal regardless of how light or dark their skin is most Indians are of the same race genetic research has proven this.
The Aryan/Dravidian divide theory was first coined by white supremacists during Britain's rule of India. The only solid biological difference between the two groups is skin pigmentation, even the languages of Sanskrit and Dravidian are thought to have come from the same unknown route language. The Indian Aboriginals or negroites as they are sometimes called make up a very small percentage of India's population.
Also all this talk about indo-european influences and Aryans is just plain uneducated, Dna tests show that the so called Dravidian and Aryan races of India are one and the same and are more closely related to the Chinese than indo-european people. And despite some so called "theory's" there is no proof that the Aryans ever managed to successfully invade India in ancient history as All harrapan ruins show no sign of war. The closest thing to it was the much later Islamic invasion. The small percentage of Indians with indo-european blood are mostly descended from when the British ruled India.
Can I have some sources please???
You're claim about Aryans being closer to (chinese)mongoloids is 100% HOGWASH!
Indo-Aryans are racially and linguistically caucasian. Dravidians however, are NEITHER caucasian nor mongoloid in origin.
In fact, the Dravidians are considered to be a NEGROID people. It turns out that the first human settlers to south and southeast asia were negroid peoples who left africa and migrated into southern asia through the arabian pennisula. Dravidians are genetically closer to australian aboriginees than to chinese or indo-aryans.
i never said Aryans were closer to Chinese, i said the majority of Indians are. the majority of Indians are not related to indo-european or aboriginal regardless of how light or dark their skin is most Indians are of the same race genetic research has proven this.
The Aryan/Dravidian divide theory was first coined by white supremacists during Britain's rule of India. The only solid biological difference between the two groups is skin pigmentation, even the languages of Sanskrit and Dravidian are thought to have come from the same unknown route language. The Indian Aboriginals or negroites as they are sometimes called make up a very small percentage of India's population.
Well, no. R1a (the Indo European Y-chromosome) has some of its highest concentrations in India (nearly 50% of the male population), indicating a very large influx of genetic material from the Aryans. And Sanskrit is one of the best understood languages on earth, being among the first languages lumped into the Indo-European (Indo-Iranian sub family) family languages, as attested by several obvious cognates of basic (and highly stable) words. Dravidian, on the other hand, is its own language family. Patrilineally , if not in terms of overall genetics, the old view makes a great deal of sense given the evidence.
Cite your sources, cause right now you can color me skeptical.
On top of that, if you check here, you'll find a number of Sanskrit gods which derive their names from Indo-European ones.
I've heard that some analysis indicates that it is a mistake to think that the Mohenjo-daro seals are an actual fully formed writing system.
_________________
* here for the nachos.
Chaotica
Veteran
Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 714
Location: Hyperborea, buried under the ice and snow
I meant:
If there are any people on the forum who live on their native land and worship theid native Gods?
Who learn and respect their history and honour those who perished for that?
Who refuses to mix all religions into one?
We all live on different continents and speak different languages. We all are different peple. But we all once had our OWN religions, and I wonder if there are some peiple who remains Pagan inspite of all. May be the topic wasn't named correctly?
And, by the way, Aryans came from Hyperborea and moved to the lands with warmer climate (India was among them), but the most of them setttled down in Scandinavia (not far from former homeland), some came closer to the southern shores of the Baltic sea. And if you learn carefully, there are some legends still in India, China and Mongolia about tall people with blond hair and blue eyes who stayed there for a while and left then again somewhere.
To digger1: Paganism is the religion of our ancestors, inspired by Nature. It numbers about 5500 years in Ukraine. Many of those people were wise grass healers and possessed great spiritual powers, which made the Christians think of them to be "demons", "witches" and burn them alive, like in time of "Holy Inquisition". I believe that wizards still live among us. They can understand the language of Nature and foresee many things. Soon we'll celebrate the 7517 year.
The problem I have with that is that it is not clear who WE are and what OWN religion precisely means.
All the European nations and probably all nations of the world are made up of people of different ethnic and geographical origins.
These may or may not have had a similar religion or spiritual cult in the past and these religions or spiritual cults may or may not have had multi-faceted origins.
With religions or spiritual cults hopping from one ethnic or geographical group to the next and all the time changing in the process, how can you speak of OWN? The religions of this world constitute a huge network of related cultures. So how different are all of us people really anyway? Perhaps the similarities far outweigh the differences.
Chaotica
Veteran
Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 714
Location: Hyperborea, buried under the ice and snow
I meant:
If there are any people on the forum who live on their native land and worship theid native Gods?
Who learn and respect their history and honour those who perished for that?
Who refuses to mix all religions into one?
We all live on different continents and speak different languages. We all are different peple. But we all once had our OWN religions, and I wonder if there are some peiple who remains Pagan inspite of all. May be the topic wasn't named correctly?
And, by the way, Aryans came from Hyperborea and moved to the lands with warmer climate (India was among them), but the most of them setttled down in Scandinavia (not far from former homeland), some came closer to the southern shores of the Baltic sea. And if you learn carefully, there are some legends still in India, China and Mongolia about tall people with blond hair and blue eyes who stayed there for a while and left then again somewhere.
To digger1: Paganism is the religion of our ancestors, inspired by Nature. It numbers about 5500 years in Ukraine. Many of those people were wise grass healers and possessed great spiritual powers, which made the Christians think of them to be "demons", "witches" and burn them alive, like in time of "Holy Inquisition". I believe that wizards still live among us. They can understand the language of Nature and foresee many things. Soon we'll celebrate the 7517 year.
Well, first off, most people here are from the United States. Unless we have a few Native American aspies here, that means that they came from somewhere else. Mostly Europe or Africa, although in the last 30 years we've had large influxes from Southeast Asia and Latin America. The native inhabitants of the USA were mostly murdered in deliberate acts of genocide by the first settlers, who came from England. So no, I would say that most people here do not live on their native soil. For most Americans, there IS no motherland-they're a genetic mixture of a dozen ethnicities, and some even have two or even three different races in their genes. Tiger Woods, the American golfer, has FOUR different races in him! I understand you're in the Ukraine. My city has a small Ukrainian immigrant community, mostly practicing evangelical Christianity, and they are bewildered by the ethnoracial blur of America. Sometimes tensions explode, such as when Ukrainian preachers urge their followers to attack homosexuals. You can't really understand the US until you've lived here. Also, there are a lot of people here from Australia, who are in the same genetic boat. The rest are from the UK and are English, and are therefore Saxons from Germany, and they were already Christianized when they arrived. Most of what Americans call "paganism" is really a watered down distorted version of guesses about the Celtic religion. We've been trying to explain this to you, but you don't seem to be getting it. And no, none of us know anything about the old ways in the Ukraine, simply because we're not from there, unless you want to go a few generations back. I have a pure Czech in my ancestry four generations back (a great-grandmother) but she was Catholic. Do you get it now? You may want to ask on the Euro forum at the bottom of the forums list.
Also all this talk about indo-european influences and Aryans is just plain uneducated, Dna tests show that the so called Dravidian and Aryan races of India are one and the same and are more closely related to the Chinese than indo-european people. And despite some so called "theory's" there is no proof that the Aryans ever managed to successfully invade India in ancient history as All harrapan ruins show no sign of war. The closest thing to it was the much later Islamic invasion. The small percentage of Indians with indo-european blood are mostly descended from when the British ruled India.
Can I have some sources please???
You're claim about Aryans being closer to (chinese)mongoloids is 100% HOGWASH!
Indo-Aryans are racially and linguistically caucasian. Dravidians however, are NEITHER caucasian nor mongoloid in origin.
In fact, the Dravidians are considered to be a NEGROID people. It turns out that the first human settlers to south and southeast asia were negroid peoples who left africa and migrated into southern asia through the arabian pennisula. Dravidians are genetically closer to australian aboriginees than to chinese or indo-aryans.
i never said Aryans were closer to Chinese, i said the majority of Indians are. the majority of Indians are not related to indo-european or aboriginal regardless of how light or dark their skin is most Indians are of the same race genetic research has proven this.
The Aryan/Dravidian divide theory was first coined by white supremacists during Britain's rule of India. The only solid biological difference between the two groups is skin pigmentation, even the languages of Sanskrit and Dravidian are thought to have come from the same unknown route language. The Indian Aboriginals or negroites as they are sometimes called make up a very small percentage of India's population.
Well, no. R1a (the Indo European Y-chromosome) has some of its highest concentrations in India (nearly 50% of the male population), indicating a very large influx of genetic material from the Aryans. And Sanskrit is one of the best understood languages on earth, being among the first languages lumped into the Indo-European (Indo-Iranian sub family) family languages, as attested by several obvious cognates of basic (and highly stable) words. Dravidian, on the other hand, is its own language family. Patrilineally , if not in terms of overall genetics, the old view makes a great deal of sense given the evidence.
Cite your sources, cause right now you can color me skeptical.
On top of that, if you check here, you'll find a number of Sanskrit gods which derive their names from Indo-European ones.
I've heard that some analysis indicates that it is a mistake to think that the Mohenjo-daro seals are an actual fully formed writing system.
I find it amusing that you keep asking me to cite sources for my information when you have none of your own. non the less i shall comply..
Advances in genetics have made it possible to trace ancient migrations. It is now generally accepted that modern man arose in Africa about 200,000 years ago and from there spread first into India and Southeast Asia by coastal migration that probably included some boat crossings. There are several estimates of the time when this spread into India took place. According to the geneticist Stephen Oppenheimer, settlements in India appear about 90,000 years ago. From India there were later northeastern and northwestern migrations into Eurasia and the Far East.
The new findings turn on its head the previous view of the origin of Indians. The earlier view, popular in Indian history books, was that the Indian population came in two waves from the northwest around four or five thousand years ago, displacing the earlier aboriginals, descendents of regional archaic groups. . .
The new view is that subsequent to the rise of modern mankind in Africa, it found a second home in India, which is the point of migration for the populations of Europe, North Africa, China and Japan. The migrants in India slowly adapted to the wide climatic conditions in the sub-continent (from the tropical to the extreme
3
cold of the Himalayan region) leading to the rise of the Caucasoid and the Mongoloid races. . .
When the theory of the Aryan invasions into India is replaced by an “Out of India” viewpoint, one can readily explain regularities in languages that are spread widely. Linguists see connections between India and languages that extend to distant lands. Dr. Kak’s full article may be viewed at: http://www.sulekha.com/column.asp?cid=306006 .
Those who seek to foster the unity of India need to emphasize its unity, not its division. In the great cultural and religious history of India, important contributions have come forth from every region in the nation. The vast Ganga-Jamuna plain in the North of India is indeed the ancient heartland of Hinduism. This is the seat of Ayodhya (Bihar), Mathura and Vrindavan (UP), Kurukshetra (Haryana), and Indraprasatha (Delhi). The Great Mahabharata war was fought in the northern plains.
The 8th to the 13th century revival in Hinduism originated in the South. Sankaracharya from Kerala laid the foundation of modern day Hinduism. Sankara traveled to many parts of India and established centers of teaching and learning in various parts of the country. Sankara wrote extensive commentaries on Brahma Sutras, Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita, which are standard texts for Hindus. Ramanuja fromTamilnad and Madhava from Karnataka initiated the Bhakti movement, which spread to many parts of the country, both North and South. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu from Bengal, Mirabai from Rajasthan, Tulsidas from U.P, Guru Nanak from Punjab, Jnaneshwar from Maharashtra, Jaideva (author of Gita Govinda) from Orissa, have all contributed to Hindu religion.
The four Hindu holy places and pilgrimage sites (Tirathas and Dhams) at Badri Nath, Rameshwaram, Puri, and Dwarka are located in four corners of India: north, south, east and west. Every pious Hindu aspires to visit the four Dhams in one’s lifetime.
Some people equate Sanskrit with Hindi language and the Devanagri script. According to Swami Dayananda Saraswati, founder of Arsha Vidya Gurukulum in Pennsylvania and a Sanskrit scholar, Sanskrit language originally did not have its own script. It was written in a variety of local scripts. The writing of Sanskrit in the Devanagri script is a later development in history.
4
An Aryan invasion of India from the outside around 1,500 B. C. did not occur. People of North and South India have lived together in peace as two branches of one family since antiquity. People who talk of an Aryan conquest of India parrot the 19th century British viewpoint and do disservice to the cause of unity of India. THE MYTH OF ARYAN INVASIONS OF INDIA Dr. MADAN LAL GOEL UNIVERSITY OF WEST FLORIDA
You seem a bit dense so ill sum it all up for you as simply as i can:
India was the first place to be inhabitated by modern humans after Africa, the "Aryan" and "Dravidian" "races" of India are two slightly different branches of the same race, the differences being adaptation to their respective climates. Many language experts agree that Dravidian and Sanskrit are related and probably come from a route source. The earliest usage of the word Aryan was never used to denote race, it was used as a greeting meaning kingly, good and wise, used in the same way as we might use the word "sir" in English. Though time its meaning changed slightly in some places, for example in some places it meant "noble savage" but never originally used to denote race. The people of India are related to Europeans and east Asians via the fact that Caucasoid and mongoloids are descended from early inhabitants of India who migrated to those areas. The Aboriginals of India are descended from more recent immigrations hence why they still retain Negroid features in their skulls and dna markers unlike the so called Aryan/Dravidian peoples.
Im sorry but what your saying is impossible, genetics prove that India was the first place where modern humans settled in mass, and from there populated the rest of the world. there is no evidence of another people coming into India and replacing the original Indian stocks in their dna either.
now, how about you cite some educated sources for your scientifically impossible neo-nazi ideology? or did the big man in the clouds just place science here to test your faith?
You are quoting from N. S. Rajaram? This man believes he deciphered the Harappan seals and discovered them to refer to Krishna, and other characters of the Mahabharata. That is a big stretch in my opinion. Also, I believe he is confusing Aryan to mean European.
I find this to be deliberately misleading. The Aryans who settled Iran view themselves as a distinct group of people whereas in India Aryan was denoted to rulers, honorable men, and mainly the Ksatriya clans. I haven't gone through the whole texts of Zoroaster, but I doubt there is anything in them which states he came from inner India instead of what is now known as the Afghanistan regions.
Dravidian languages are clearly noted to be distinct from Sanskrit. Try speaking Hindi to a person from Kerala. Sanskrit shares more in common with other Iranian and even European languages than with Dravidian.
I wouldn't doubt it since no other language has been found to relate closely to it. Perhaps in a hundred years we'll find out
I did read that it is suspected that the first Tirthankara came from Harappa. I am sure that the Jains had a major influence on the Vedic people.
_________________
sticks and stones may kill you.
That's why I said, one shouldn't regress to a form of religion that is more primitive than other, much more advanced spiritual practices available to us. It would be very interesting to know more about the religion practiced in these (European) regions around 800 and I am especially interested in its connections to primitive hinduism (that of the Rg Veda) but it is not something that would fit our modern way of thinking about the world and the universe.
In my opinion, no modern mainstream religion fits the contemporary Western view of the humanity and the universe. By simplicity versus complexity, I was referring to the number and relationship of religious beliefs and mythologies. Polytheism is considerably more complex than Christianity. I don't see how the monotheism of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or Samaritanism better accomodates our knowledge of the universe than Greek polytheism or Norse mythology would. It's all fiction no matter how you slice it.
I suppose by fiction you are referring to the cosmologies of the religions you mentioned? I think you are right, I also see them as fiction or myths, although even Hinduism has plenty of (if not much more) myths and superstitions. Greek polytheism or Norse mythology aren't much better in that regard, they are also fantasies which have lost touch with modern times.
The thing is that even the scientific views of matter and the universe shift as one paradigma is replaced by another and objective science fails to explain the deeper meaning of consciousness and mind.
I think the spiritual philosophies of the East stand the best chance of forming a harmonious blending between science and the philosophy of mind and spirit. The nice thing about them is also that if you wish they can be combined with any religion (although religious fundamentalists will strongly oppose such a thing).
I'm waay too busy actually being in the mainstream to cite my sources to refute your pro-Indian agenda.
By the way, I haven't forgot the time you tried to claim Indian civilization was 1,700,000 years old. Watch out that you don't latch onto appealing ideas.
Because modern linguistics place Dravidian as not being related to Indo-European (sometimes its grouped with the language of the Elamites, buts that's all I know as far as relating it to other languages goes).
And contemporary theories on human origin don't include an "out of India model".
And even using a crude R1a = Indo-European patrilineal descent model, I wouldn't expect Indians to resemble Western Europeans genetically because Western Europeans aren't Proto-Indo-Europeans in the first place.
And modern anti-Aryan invasion arguments are pretty shamelessly politicized, as you have done me the service of hand delivering:
Yes, there is controversy over it, but it sure as hell isn't as strong as you think in your favor.
_________________
* here for the nachos.
twoshots, I take it you are against the hindutva ideology? Come on, don't tell me you don't believe a benevolent king and his monkey friend built a bridge to what is Sri Lanka a million years ago? I mean, there is PROOF of it, but those damn Christians named it Adam's Bridge. They're trying to take away our HINDUTVA!!
_________________
sticks and stones may kill you.