Evolution and the age of the earth (civilised debate)

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chever
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03 Oct 2008, 11:51 pm

Yeah. It's like saying intermediate forms of software were "deformed and dysfunctional" for their time. (Although, to be fair, this criticism could apply to Windows ME.) A stinking crock of shit to say the least.


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04 Oct 2008, 6:32 am

snake321 wrote:
Evolution is just a theory, like any other theory.

I quite agree, if you are referring to scientific theories. And as scientific theories go, it is one of the theories best supported by evidence. If you also understand the difference between "just a theory" as used in colloquial language, and "theory" as used in science, you're well on your way to understanding the status of evolutionary theory. It might help you to read this essay on the subject.

snake321 wrote:
Not to mention a theory with enough holes in it to piss through.

Please demonstrate. The arguments on that creationist web site you quote won't do. And it definitely is creationist:
living-fossils.com wrote:
Genetics, microbiology, paleontology, geology and all other branches of science constantly reveal a truth that Darwin and his supporters never wanted, and that they perhaps never expected—the fact of Creation.

That is because God is the Real and what you call on apart from Him is false. God is the All-High, the Most Great.

Don't you see that God sends down water from the sky and then in the morning the earth is covered in green? God is All-Subtle, All-Aware.

Everything in the heavens and everything in the Earth belongs to Him. God is the Rich Beyond Need, the Praiseworthy.

Don't you see that God has made everything on the Earth subservient to you and the ships running upon the sea by His command? He holds back the heaven, preventing it from falling to the Earth—except by His permission. God is All-Compassionate to humanity, Most Merciful.

It is He Who gave you life and then will cause you to die and then will give you life again. Man is truly ungrateful. (Qur'an, 22:62-66)


Living fossils inconsistent with evolutionary theory? Look up stabilizing selection.

No transitional forms? Have a look at the therapsid-mammal transitional series.

snake321 wrote:
I just see it as another religion.

A belief system that appeals to actions of supernatural entities and processes to explain the natural world, rather than to theories derived from and checked against observations? Go on, show me the supernatural elements of evolutionary theory. Has it occurred to you that this parody is funny exactly because evolution is not a religion?

Quote:
Naturalists must remember that the process of evolution is revealed only through fossil forms. ... Only paleontology can provide them with the evidence of evolution and reveal its course or mechanisms.2

Wrong. Evolutionary theory makes predictions that go well beyond the fossil record, so if it is correct it must be revealed through observations other than the fossil record. Surely you have heard of some of the relevant molecular evidence? You could call patterns of mutations, broken genes, and endogenous retroviruses fossils, but they are definitely not the subject paleontologists normally study.


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A 24-million-year-old caterpillar fossil embedded in amber is proof that caterpillars have always existed in exactly the same form—and never underwent evolution.

I don't quite know where to start. Are you equating 24 million years with always? Are you saying evolution implies constant change? (Remember stabilizing selection?) Unless you tell us why you think the existence of this caterpillar is inconsistent with evolution we don't even know what your argument is. You haven't presented an argument, you have only made an unsupported assertion.

Quote:
N. Eldredge and Ian Tattershall make the following important comment on that matter:

That individual kinds of fossils remain recognizably the same throughout the length of their occurrence in the fossil record had been known to paleontologists long before Darwin published his Origin.

Would that be Niles Eldredge, one of the authors of the punctuated equilibrium theory of evolution? He doesn't deny evolution, he disputes gradualism.

Quote:
The American paleontologist S. M. Stanley describes how this fact, revealed by the fossil record, is ignored by the Darwinist dogma that dominates the scientific world, and how others are also encouraged to ignore it:

The known fossil record is not, and never has been, in accord with gradualism.

Could it be that Stanley is another proponent of punctuated equilibrium, who has no problem with evolution, only disagrees with Darwin on one detail of the evolutionary process?



carturo222
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04 Oct 2008, 9:25 am

LKL wrote:
Intermediate forms were not intermediate until something new evolved. That is, each step evolved from the prior step because the new one was better for the habitat it existed in. Saying that intermediate forms must have been deformed and dysfunctional is a straw man that does not agree with actual evolutionary theory.


Quite right. In fact, considering that evolution is still ongoing, the creationists' argument that there are no transitional forms is ridiculous. EVERY organism, bird, reptile, or anywhere in-between, is a transitional form. Even we are.



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04 Oct 2008, 9:38 am

Greyhound wrote:
I see the immature insults have already started.


Honestly, what did you expect? PPR arguments always turn out this way.



slowmutant
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04 Oct 2008, 9:40 am

carturo222 wrote:
LKL wrote:
Intermediate forms were not intermediate until something new evolved. That is, each step evolved from the prior step because the new one was better for the habitat it existed in. Saying that intermediate forms must have been deformed and dysfunctional is a straw man that does not agree with actual evolutionary theory.


Quite right. In fact, considering that evolution is still ongoing, the creationists' argument that there are no transitional forms is ridiculous. EVERY organism, bird, reptile, or anywhere in-between, is a transitional form. Even we are.


Oh yes, I agree. But I would extend the evolutionary principle to include the spiritual and individual realms. I mean, a human being is a transitional form that begins as an fetus and ends as an (elderly) adult. But that's only the gross physical aspect of it.



claire-333
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04 Oct 2008, 9:49 am

carturo222 wrote:
EVERY organism, bird, reptile, or anywhere in-between, is a transitional form. Even we are.
Hmmm...This statement made me think of the 'Why not machines' thread. Image



slowmutant
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04 Oct 2008, 9:54 am

What is the intermediary form between childish innocence and adult wisdom? Anyone? :)



claire-333
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04 Oct 2008, 9:56 am

Adolescent recklessness?

Teen angst?

Mid life crisis?



AspE
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04 Oct 2008, 6:58 pm

Almost everything you quoted here is false.

Quote:
However, actual observations in nature have indicated that there is no such continuity as claimed.

On the contrary, all life uses almost identical cell processes. Humans share an astounding number of their genes with plants. All life uses DNA as the method of heredity. Even when you look at organs, there are similarities between species.


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Evolution is a process alleged to have taken place in the past,

No, it is seen to be ongoing.

Quote:
...and fossil discoveries are the only scientific source that can tell us about the history of life.

Not true, either. Studies of modern animals can tell us much about how they came about, how far two species are from a common ancestor...


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That being the case, countless numbers of "intermediate forms" must have emerged and lived over the long process of transition in question. And a few of them must certainly have been fossilized.

Yes, a few. Very few animals and plants ever get fossilized, for many reasons. However, what we do see in the fossil record is numerous transitional forms.

Quote:
For example, half-fish, half-amphibian creatures that still bore fish-like characteristics but which had also acquired certain amphibious features must have existed.


They did, we already found fossils of that.

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And reptile-birds with both reptilian and avian features must have emerged.

That has been found too.

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Since these creatures were in a process of transition, they must have been deformed, deficient and flawed.

Every single individual creature is part of that transition. What we are talking about are mostly small variations, not sudden monsterous mutants, although that could have happened from time to time.


Quote:
If any such living species really did exist, then they should number, in the millions, or even billions. Abundant traces of them should be found in the fossil record, because the number of intermediate forms should be even greater than the number of animal species known today. The geologic strata should be full of the remains of fossilized intermediate forms. Darwin himself admitted this. As he wrote in his book, The Origin of Species:

This statement is a contradition. There are only traces, but the traces should be plentiful? Which is it, traces or plenty?

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Yet Darwin was aware that no intermediate forms had yet been found, and regarded this as a major dilemma facing his theory.

That is true, but since Darwin's time, many fossil discoveries have been made that confirm the existence of transitional forms. Many were the result of improper initial classification.

Quote:
In the face of this difficulty, the only explanation Darwin could offer was that the fossil records of his time were insufficient. He claimed that later, when the fossil records had been examined in detail, the missing intermediate forms would definitely be found.

As I said, they have been.

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All living things on Earth came into existence suddenly with all their complex and superior features. In other words, they were created. Absolutely no scientific evidence suggests that living things are descended from one another, as evolutionists maintain.

Absolutely untrue. This statement is based only on religious faith, not science.

Quote:
Species are usually static, or nearly so, for long periods, ... genera never show evolution into new species or genera but replacement of one by another, and change is more or less abrupt.

We have little way of knowing what changes were taking place other than obvious physical form. It is true that there are periods of relative stability, probably corresponding with stability in the environment.

Quote:
A 24-million-year-old caterpillar fossil embedded in amber is proof that caterpillars have always existed in exactly the same form—and never underwent evolution.

That's a load of bull. The fossilized caterpiller is proof that it was a successful form. This one could have been the ancestor of all existing ones, and there are millions of species of them. The fact is insects evolved to live on land sooner than most other taxa.

What happens is that even when new species emerge, the existing ones don't necessarily disappear, they just move into new ecological niches. Ants are common in amber, but they evolved from wasps. There is a difference between a primitive ant and modern ants.

The argument between gradualism and punctuated equalibrium is a valid scientific question, but know that even if gradualism is false, it still took millions of years for new species to evolve.



monty
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05 Oct 2008, 7:27 pm

twoshots wrote:
Pffft whatev. Icelanders believe in freakin' elves, we're supposed to be impressed?



I have met exactly one Icelandic adult who literally believes in elves. How many Americans believe in Santa Claus?? Literally? Just the kids and a few delusional adults. How many Americans say they believe in Santa? Lots.

The hidden people myth evolved to keep kids away from dangerous rock formations, to keep them from wandering around in the mountains. It was evoked in stories told during the long winters, just as ghost stories and urban legends are told around the world. And it is evoked like the gremlin myth to explain mysterious events or coincidences - when the bulldozer breaks down, don't look to see if the oil was changed on schedule or if kids put sugar in the gas or if it just broke - blame the invisible mischief makers.

Harmless fun, and the foreigners start taking it literally. Then Icelanders can laugh at them and their sophisticated cultural analyses. Lol.



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05 Oct 2008, 7:50 pm

A likely story ;)


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05 Oct 2008, 9:10 pm

slowmutant wrote:
What is the intermediary form between childish innocence and adult wisdom? Anyone? :)


Probably about thirty years of bitterness.


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Orwell
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05 Oct 2008, 9:16 pm

Phagocyte wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
What is the intermediary form between childish innocence and adult wisdom? Anyone? :)


Probably about thirty years of bitterness.

Or teen angst.


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05 Oct 2008, 10:13 pm

Orwell wrote:
Or teen angst.


Teen angst has only seven years, but bitterness is forever.


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05 Oct 2008, 10:24 pm

Phagocyte wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Or teen angst.


Teen angst has only seven years, but bitterness is forever.

I'm not bitter.

Yet.


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chever
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05 Oct 2008, 10:29 pm

Be sure to pick at your psychic wounds.


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