Official delusional religionist thread

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Awesomelyglorious
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23 Dec 2008, 5:47 pm

ike wrote:

Although that's probably true today, I think that's a newer rationale. The reasoning behind banishing people from a given church or religion I think has its roots in the time before people started thinking about separating religion and governance. During that time there wasn't banishment "from the church", there was just banishment. And that essentially was a death sentence, or at least, that's the way people viewed it rather in spite of the fact that it's well known that a person can survive in isolation. So the threat of banishment from your village at the time was the church/government's way of enforcing the majority opinion about what was or wasn't moral. If a person did or suggested doing "immoral" things (like for example cutting their hair or walking through a particular "sacred" area), they could be threatened with banishment to keep them in line. Once we started talking about the possibility of separating our religious notions from our governance I think the church gradually evolved its rationale for banishment while the state gradually modified the concept to imprisonment. So now I think excommunication from a given church is really just a vestigial organ of the church kind of like your appendix.

I don't think it is a newer rationale, because a similar logic is held to by Protestants, as Protestant churches also will kick people out, and the Reformation put a high emphasis on Biblical groundings. Protestants will usually also stress that these actions are called for by biblical demands. Not only that, but the Catholic church historically has excommunicated kingdoms(which would not cause any physical death, but rather is purely a spiritual attack upon a kingdom) and is well known for using that sort of threat, and non-Christians did exist within Christian Europe, for example, there are the Jews. Not only that, but I don't think that the Catholics would just bother *just* banishing heretics, as they were well-known for killing heretical groups, such as the Cathars.

ike
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23 Dec 2008, 9:53 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

ike wrote:

Ummm... right, so as these things came after the period of time that I was talking about, that would seem to support what I was saying. It's an evolved rationale that came out of hanging on to a practice that had become mostly vestigial.

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twoshots
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23 Dec 2008, 11:27 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

If you want to know more about Catholics and Catholicism, all you have to do is ask nicely. Speaking as a lifelong Catholic, I don't appreciate the sass.

Why do you people say that those of us who still believe in Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and savior, and yet don't recognize the authority of the Pope, are non-christians? How are we supposed to accept a single person as infallible when there has been a long history in the past of popes being hedonistic?

Au contraire. Was raised a Catholic myself, and I distinctly recall getting the "catholics are the ones who aren't christians" vibe wafting from the (fundie) protestant camp.

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Orwell
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23 Dec 2008, 11:59 pm

twoshots wrote:

Au contraire. Was raised a Catholic myself, and I distinctly recall getting the "catholics are the ones who aren't christians" vibe wafting from the (fundie) protestant camp.

Of course. Catholics are evil tools of Satan who worship cookies! Are Roman Catholics Christian?

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techstepgenr8tion
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24 Dec 2008, 12:12 am

Orwell wrote:

Of course. Catholics are evil tools of Satan who worship cookies! Are Roman Catholics Christian?

No, Catholics don't believe in Christ.

Averick
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24 Dec 2008, 12:15 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Of course. Catholics are evil tools of Satan who worship cookies! Are Roman Catholics Christian?

No, Catholics don't believe in Christ.

That's right. They're actually cannibals who eat Christ.

twoshots
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24 Dec 2008, 12:16 am

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techstepgenr8tion
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24 Dec 2008, 12:19 am

Averick wrote:

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Of course. Catholics are evil tools of Satan who worship cookies! Are Roman Catholics Christian?

No, Catholics don't believe in Christ.

That's right. They're actually cannibals who eat Christ.

I should know, I am one. They believe in Cathulu - hence the 'Cath'.

techstepgenr8tion
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24 Dec 2008, 12:30 am

Realistically though, when popes and religious leaders speak like this I think they're doing nothing more than shooting themselves in the foot. I think many of the great theologians have done much better at unraveling purposes, points, and reasons why commandments or things of that nature are what they are - however, like Bush and McCain didn't listen to much talk radio apparently, the Pope unfortunately doesn't take his queues from those who analyze it from a secular perspective and deal with the argument from that standpoint.

I may myself think that the name 'marriage' is a zero-sum game and that the rights are really what's called for (marriage and civil union being ironclad equal in all legal aspects), on the other hand though I'd never say that we should crush down on sexuality - I don't think even most of the Prop 8 supporters in California would support that just because its a different paradigm and a specific issue. Its a fixture in many people and no one has the right to re-stigmatize or oppress people as such.

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24 Dec 2008, 12:47 am

Catholicism has nothing to do with the real teachings of Christ.

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Averick
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24 Dec 2008, 2:08 am

Magnus wrote:

Catholicism has nothing to do with the real teachings of Christ.

I second that notion.

Awesomelyglorious
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24 Dec 2008, 3:03 am

ike wrote:

What period of time *are* you talking about??? I referenced the Protestant desire for early history, the killing of heretics which had occurred ever since the church acquired earthly power which was during the days of the Roman empire(and before the church did, there was a large body of non-Christianity, which still undercuts your thesis), and the well-noted use of excommunication against kings, which was and must have been before secularization, which would seem to oppose your idea.

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24 Dec 2008, 5:53 am

ready to be flamed...

I think that it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of a supernatural being using natural methods. Considering the definition of supernatural is "Of or relating to existence outside the natural world." and "Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces." And that an argument over the existence of such a being is pointless as it would not have a reliable outcome since a supernatural being would exist outside the natural world and obviously be able to violate the natural methods you are attempting to test it with. But people try.

*shrugs*

as long as you alllllll realize you are using faith (albeit usually not consciously)

slowmutant
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24 Dec 2008, 8:39 am

Averick wrote:

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Of course. Catholics are evil tools of Satan who worship cookies! Are Roman Catholics Christian?

No, Catholics don't believe in Christ.

That's right. They're actually cannibals who eat Christ.

Eat and drink Christ, symbolically. :wink:

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24 Dec 2008, 9:37 am

So if Jesus Christ represents "belief in free will", that would mean that whenever you eat bread/gluten and drink alcohol your belief in ( the illusory ) "free will" is reinforced/renewed. :wink:

Which is in fact my experience, and why I no longer consume either of them, ( amongst other reasons ), belief in free will is so alienating, except when it is used to "choose" to believe in god.
.

Last edited by ouinon on 24 Dec 2008, 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

slowmutant
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24 Dec 2008, 9:51 am

Are you suggesting that if I cut out bread/gluten, I'd have no free will? That doesn't sound good.

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