Define morality?

Page 5 of 8 [ 122 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

27 Jan 2009, 11:26 pm

greenblue wrote:

Egoist people are abominable, and usually short-sighted

And the rest of the population has shown itself to be demi-gods? Come on, I have not met a non-abominable and far-sighted person yet!

DentArthurDent
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,884
Location: Victoria, Australia

27 Jan 2009, 11:35 pm

Fnord wrote:

greenblue wrote:

Fnord wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Fnord wrote:

... and most folks who claim to practice "altruism" do so for no other reason than to be recognised for being altruistic!

It's all an act.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

Evidence, Please?

Aww, c'mon! You're supposed to say, "No it isn't"!

You are incorrect pantomime etiquette demands the debate should have proceeded with

OOOh No it isn't

really Fnord I am surprised at you

_________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance anyday"
Douglas Adams

"Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand" Karl Marx

greenblue
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,896
Location: Home

27 Jan 2009, 11:44 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

greenblue wrote:

Egoist people are abominable, and usually short-sighted

And the rest of the population has shown itself to be demi-gods? Come on, I have not met a non-abominable and far-sighted person yet!

_________________
?Everything is perfect in the universe - even your desire to improve it.?

greenblue
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,896
Location: Home

27 Jan 2009, 11:59 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Orwell wrote:

greenblue wrote:

Quote:

I can help others without expecting that they will be able to repay the favor. What's wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with that from my perspective, but from the position of egoism, which it seems that is Fnord's and AG's position in this thread, if I'm not mistaken, there would be either skepticism or negation about the existence of altruism or the honesty of altruism, but AG is the one who can give a better output on this.

Egoism is abominable, and usually short-sighted.

Agreed! Narcissism is pretty revolting, as well. Ditto for nihilism and materialism.

well, I believe it is necessary to make a distinction between egoism and egotism, if I'm correct, which I think there may be a confusion there. From what I gather egoism is a philosophical position while egotism is more like a psychological issue, like narcissism, which it seems that egoism does not necessarily favors egotism.

wikipedia wrote:

Egotism is the motivation to maintain and enhance favorable views of self. Egotism means placing oneself at the center of one's world with no direct concern for others.

Egotism is often accomplished by exploiting the altruism, irrationality and ignorance of others, as well as utilizing coercive force and/or fraud.

Egotism differs from both altruism, or acting to gain fewer values than are being given, and egoism, a determination to gain and give an equal amount or degree of values.

_________________
?Everything is perfect in the universe - even your desire to improve it.?

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,953
Location:

28 Jan 2009, 12:01 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

Fnord wrote:

greenblue wrote:

Fnord wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Fnord wrote:

... and most folks who claim to practice "altruism" do so for no other reason than to be recognised for being altruistic!

It's all an act.

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

Evidence, Please?

Aww, c'mon! You're supposed to say, "No it isn't"!

You are incorrect pantomime etiquette demands the debate should have proceeded with

OOOh No it isn't

really Fnord I am surprised at you

Ah well ... just trying to keep it entertaining.

Anyway, BOT: I really do believe that "altruism" is an act, and that everybody does what they do for something in return, if only for the recognition of being "altruistic."

Even Mother Theresa wanted a better parking space.

_________________
The mere fact that science may not yet adequately explain an object, event, or experience does not mean the immediate explanation should automatically default to a conspiratorial, extraterrestrial, paranormal, or supernatural cause.

greenblue
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,896
Location: Home

28 Jan 2009, 12:33 am

Fnord wrote:

... and most folks who claim to practice "altruism" do so for no other reason than to be recognised for being altruistic!

It's all an act.

I'm altruistic, and God knows that cause he reserved a place for me in Paradise.

Seriously
Here is a hypothetical situation, A finds B who is hurt lying on the floor (they don't know each other and are complete strangers), being a victim of mugging or assault, A decides to stay and to help, A helps him by calling an ambulance and the police with his cell phone, then A waits with B until help arrives, then when help finally gets there, A leaves wishing B good luck.

That seemed that A was being somehow, altruistic, or considered as such.
The act seem to have been out of compasion and empathy from A towards B.
If that was just an act, what could A gain from it?
Would it be the same reason in every similar case?
Would that be considered egoism just because of gaining a 'warm feeling' for helping someone rather than altruism?

Quote:

Ah well ... just trying to keep it entertaining.

well, this thread has been entertaining the way it is.

_________________
?Everything is perfect in the universe - even your desire to improve it.?

Last edited by greenblue on 28 Jan 2009, 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,953
Location:

28 Jan 2009, 12:43 am

greenblue wrote:

If that was just an act, what could A gain from it?

Relief from the responsibility of having to arrange and/or attend B's funeral.
A really BIG favor from B for having saved B's life.
Fame and glory for being a hero.

greenblue wrote:

Would it be the same reason in every similar case?

Probably not. Different victims, different reasons. If B were a total babe, then the possible reward might be a long series of sexual favors. If B were a wealthy fellow, then the reason might be more related to monetary rewards - or even a possible inheritance. It all depends on the victim and A's relatioship to that victim.

greenblue wrote:

Would that be considered egoism for the fact of gaining a "warm feeling" for helping someone?

Perhaps. But this "Egoism v. Altruism" issue to me seems similar to the "Good v. Evil" issue, in that if there were no Evil in the world, then how would we recognise Good? By the same reasoning, if I believe there is no Altruism, how can I recognise Egoism, especially in myself?

BellaDonna
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,858

28 Jan 2009, 12:52 am

Morality means you won't live forever. Immortal or Immorality means you will.

greenblue
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,896
Location: Home

28 Jan 2009, 1:06 am

Quote:

Relief from the responsibility of having to arrange and/or attend B's funeral.

I forgot to mention that A and B don't know each other and are total strangers, it is a case similar that happened to someone I know by the way.

Quote:

A really BIG favor from B for having saved B's life.
Fame and glory for being a hero.

Yes, that's possible, the question is, would that be always the case in every similar situation?

Quote:

They wouldn't know each other.

Quote:

well, I think by mantaining the belief that everything people do is for self-interest only and nothing more, hence rejecting altruism as something real, would make one somewhat an egoist for relating to that philosophy.

_________________
?Everything is perfect in the universe - even your desire to improve it.?

slowmutant
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,430
Location: Ontario, Canada

28 Jan 2009, 1:27 am

GB, this is not a productive area of discussion.

bigblock
Deinonychus

Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 309
Location: Canada

28 Jan 2009, 2:18 am

haut digity dawg (no reference specific)

_________________
We're here for a good time... Not a long time...So have a good time, the sun can't shine everyday.

Sand
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 100
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

28 Jan 2009, 5:24 am

I go along with the concept that people help each other and other creatures for selfish reasons but I act out of extended selfishness. When I see someone I can help I place myself in their situation and help them because it creates a social ambiance where I can expect to be helped when I am in trouble. When I see an animal hurt or needing something I feel that hurt or need myself and help because it makes me feel better. I am always selfishly trying to make myself feel better and I don't know if that can be classified as altruistic or just plain selfish.

To be able to help gives me a sense of personal competence.

slowmutant
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,430
Location: Ontario, Canada

28 Jan 2009, 6:16 am

That's selfishness masquerading as altruism IMO.

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

28 Jan 2009, 8:06 am

slowmutant wrote:

That's selfishness masquerading as altruism IMO.

Human beings are natural born egotists. It is our nature. Altruism (so-called) is a perversion of egotism.

There was once a man from Galalee who sacrificed himself for the human race. What good did it do? Nada.

One the square rigged sailing ship they found the right balance between egoism and altruism. The rule was one hand for yourself, the other for the ship.

ruveyn

slowmutant
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,430
Location: Ontario, Canada

28 Jan 2009, 8:14 am

Quote:

There was once a man from Galalee who sacrificed himself for the human race. What good did it do? Nada.

More. Provoke me some more.

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

28 Jan 2009, 8:16 am

slowmutant wrote:

Quote:

There was once a man from Galalee who sacrificed himself for the human race. What good did it do? Nada.

More. Provoke me some more.

You provoke yourself. I only speak/write true things.

ruveyn

Page 5 of 8 [ 122 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Next

Jump to:

Define morality? Post Reply New Topic

Define morality?