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Awesomelyglorious
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08 Mar 2009, 5:10 pm

Sand wrote:

You cannot separate truth from the way it is validated.Truth is a product of validation. The two words, emotion and motivation, are similar for a very good reason and the motivations for discovering truth are motivated by emotion, whatever the formalities.

Yes you can. Truth is usually considered a quality outside of human existence, much less validation.

Well.... without emotions, human beings wouldn't act. The issue is that some think that a contradiction exists if you say "I believe this, but it is not true", so I am addressing that issue.

Sand
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08 Mar 2009, 5:10 pm

Magnus wrote:

Jesus is a good example of someone who used his free will. He believed he was the son of God and now look at what became of him. There are many examples of people using their free will to redirect their lives in spite of great odds and difficulties.

Many people just accept things the way they are. They believe that they should be the way that they are told they should be. Many of us do not reach our full potential because of subconscious beliefs and not just because of conscious beliefs from cultural conditioning or instinctive barriers.

Your subconscious is very much a part of you and as a matter of fact your subconscious is no doubt the greater part of your personality. I do not want to get into whether or not Jesus can be analyzed in the manner of considering a real person. But you cannot believe that anybody is motivated without some sort of input from somewhere. Something always makes something happen. That's the way the universe works.

Sand
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08 Mar 2009, 5:18 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Sand wrote:

Yes you can. Truth is usually considered a quality outside of human existence, much less validation.

Well.... without emotions, human beings wouldn't act. The issue is that some think that a contradiction exists if you say "I believe this, but it is not true", so I am addressing that issue.

Your concept of truth is, to say the least, Platonic - a cloud cuckoo concept. No scientific truth exists outside validation. If there is a primary inviolable truth outside of human perception it is unobtainable without validation. Obtainable truth is non-existent in human society without validation.

Awesomelyglorious
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08 Mar 2009, 5:24 pm

Sand wrote:

truth (trooth)n.pl. truths (troothz, trooths). 1. Conformity to fact or actuality. 5. Reality; actuality.

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Both of the definitions selected are the definitions I am using. "Cloud cuckoo concept" really isn't a rebuttal to a definition.

Scientific truths do not exist under a falsificationist perspective *anyway*, and that is one of the major theories of scientific knowledge.

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08 Mar 2009, 5:50 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Sand wrote:

And just how do you grasp "fact" or "reality"? It requires procedure. That's what validation is. Nobody knows what the hell is out there. All we know is what we perceive through procedure. You use your eyes, nose, fingertips, microscopes, mass detectors, etc.etc. Procedure. Without that there are no facts, there are no realities. And from these gross hints we somehow piece together what we call reality. And any peek into what science calls reality from time to time over the small space of time of a few centuries will show you how evanescent reality is. Dark matter didn't even exist a few years ago and now it is the major bulk of the universe. A mere century and a half ago galaxies didn't exist. We construct reality. That's the way it works.

Haliphron
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08 Mar 2009, 7:57 pm

Magnus wrote:

Thats true but HOW can you be sure that Jesus was using his free will to do what he did? Some people have personalities that cannot just accept things the way they are No Matter What things happen to be. To be precise, what Jesus did was he started a Cult based around him as the Son of God and he had the Charisma to not attract followers but to spread his message throughout Judea and the Roman Empire. Christianity was the "crisis from within" that brought about the fall of Rome.

Magnus
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08 Mar 2009, 8:22 pm

Quote:

Magnus wrote:
Jesus is a good example of someone who used his free will. He believed he was the son of God and now look at what became of him. There are many examples of people using their free will to redirect their lives in spite of great odds and difficulties.

Many people just accept things the way they are. They believe that they should be the way that they are told they should be. Many of us do not reach our full potential because of subconscious beliefs and not just because of conscious beliefs from cultural conditioning or instinctive barriers.

Haliphron wrote:
Thats true but HOW can you be sure that Jesus was using his free will to do what he did? Some people have personalities that cannot just accept things the way they are No Matter What things happen to be. To be precise, what Jesus did was he started a Cult based around him as the Son of God and he had the Charisma to not attract followers but to spread his message throughout Judea and the Roman Empire. Christianity was the "crisis from within" that brought about the fall of Rome.

Rome was a Pagan state. Most of their revenue came from idol worship and religious "tourism".
Remember that the early Christians were killed by Romans. Jesus's original teachings have been perverted I believe. Have you read about the community where he lived? The Essene's teachings are very different from Christian fundamentalism.

I think Rome built a new religion and named it Catholicism. It has nothing to do with Jesus really. They just figured that if you can't beat him, join him. I think Catholicism is more like satanism than anything else. No offense to some good Catholics, but it's really a mafia run business.

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Haliphron
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08 Mar 2009, 9:37 pm

Magnus wrote:

Let me recapitulate what Awesomelyglorious said:

Quote:

In fact, if you look at the Christian religion, it actually started more at the bottom rungs of society than was created by the top. Actually, I do not think that organized religion has been that effective at systematically controlling society, power has often been somewhat split between religious authorities and secular authorities, and Christianity has been rather scattered for the last 400 years with varying branches of it and increasing secularization of governments since then.

Im aware that it started from the bottom rungs and made its way to the top. That Can and DOES happen. But movements like that seek to break with tradition because their goal is to ultimately disrupt the social order and rearrange the status quo.
If you start out life on the bottom and you're ambitious and want to make it to the top than rigid adherence to tradition will get you NOWHERE. Jesus Christ was crucified(essentially executed)at the behest of King Herod as well as the Roman Emperor because he was CHALLENGING rabbinical traditions and was a threat to social order. Jesus Christ was a revolutionary!
Thats why its SO ironic to hear christians preaching about the sanctity of tradition and the law.

Haliphron
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18 Apr 2009, 1:36 pm

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Friedrich Hayek actually eschewed mathematical argumentation to base his work upon philosophical, sociological, and psychological elements of human beings, and argued that economies can only work through laissez-faire policies that allow for spontaneous orders to emerge, and that societies can only work if they are evolve naturally rather than being changed at governmental whim. So, no, he was not a religious conservative, but rather just an opponent to scientism in the social sciences, and the notion that societies are consciously constructed.

So then why should his work be taken seriously? It sounds like the man had an agenda and was advocating a theory which would imply the need to enact policies which would be in his self-interests.

Awesomelyglorious
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18 Apr 2009, 2:44 pm

Haliphron wrote:

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So then why should his work be taken seriously? It sounds like the man had an agenda and was advocating a theory which would imply the need to enact policies which would be in his self-interests.

Because his work was rather brilliant, as the guy wrote major works in economics, legal studies, and psychology. He is one of the most cited economists, lauded by other Nobel Laureates, and often considered among the top economists in history. His work in legal theory is also considered intelligent as well. I mean, I don't think most people dispute that Hayek was a very smart man, they just view his arguments differently, or are more or less informed about them.

In any case, who doesn't have an agenda? Not only that, but Hayek was an intellectual and not a business man, and his ideas were shunned by the mainstream for a significant period of time, so I don't see how he was just arguing for his own interests. If he were, then he'd side with a more popular idea, so that way he could be a more prestigious economist when he was younger.

Haliphron
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22 Apr 2009, 9:37 pm

Once again AG, you've shown in this thread that rhetoric can be used to argue ANY position! No matter how factually incorrect it may be. Economies are complex nonlinear dynamical systems that are very sensitive to other events which cannot always be predicted but they are NOT random and how they respond to changes CAN be predicted with accuracy in many cases. Your claims about economics do not in any way imply that the world is too complicated to be understood analytically. After all, from simple minds come simple values like tradition and wisdom. I remain staunchly skeptical of the naive notion that societies are consciously constructed rather than arising spontaneously from human interactions.

twoshots
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22 Apr 2009, 10:51 pm

Haliphron wrote:

Economies are complex nonlinear dynamical systems that are very sensitive to other events which cannot always be predicted but they are NOT random and how they respond to changes CAN be predicted with accuracy in many cases.

What cases are those? I imagine it's possible, but I'm not familiar with work on it.

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Haliphron
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22 Apr 2009, 11:59 pm

twoshots wrote:

Haliphron wrote:

What cases are those? I imagine it's possible, but I'm not familiar with work on it.

Well did you hear about the unemployed physicists who applied their expertese in chaos theory to financing by going to Wall street in their early 90s and making quite a bit of money? Its very difficult to forcast what the market will do in the future, but MUCH progress has been made in predicting how the market will react to certain external stimuli.

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