Roe v. Wade is history

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IsabellaLinton
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16 Jul 2022, 7:56 pm

ironpony wrote:

Just out of curiosity, how come in American politics, progressives believe that people have the right to bodily autonomy when it comes to abortion, but not when it comes to whether or not to get covid vaccinations, and conservatives do not believe in bodily autonomy for abortion but do for vaccinations?

I don't see any connection.

My body is my own.
The government can't tell me to be vaccinated against my will.
I'm not injecting anything into my body unless it's my choice, with my doctor's agreement.
I wouldn't let the government make this decision on my behalf.

The same thing applies with pro-choice and abortion.
I'm not having a baby in my body unless it's my choice, with my doctor's agreement.
I wouldn't let the government make that decision on my behalf either.

I don't see what the difference is.
Bodily autonomy means that a person controls their own body, rather than elected officials.

* Yes I am vaccinated but that's because it was my choice, not because it was forced.

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naturalplastic
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16 Jul 2022, 8:36 pm

ironpony wrote:

Pregnancy is not contagious.

Covid is.

If you get covid you could spread it to others...and collapse the whole healthcare system. So unlike pregnancy it isnt really just 'your own body'. Its everyone's body that would be effected by your decision to get vaxed or not.

If men could 'catch' pregnancy and were forced to carry babies to term...they would be all for ...vaccines and or abortions...whatever it took to stop the epidemic :lol:

techstepgenr8tion
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16 Jul 2022, 10:21 pm

He's got an interesting point, ie. that this could considerably lower IQ in states that ban abortion:

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ironpony
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16 Jul 2022, 11:37 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:

ironpony wrote:

Those are good points! Well put

IsabellaLinton
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16 Jul 2022, 11:44 pm

ironpony wrote:

Those are good points! Well put

I've said it many times before on WP.
I don't believe in mandatory vaccinations.
I supported the Canadian truckers (so long as they weren't violent).
I kept saying mandatory vaccines would start a legal precedent.
I didn't want to surrender any of my bodily autonomy or my choice.
From there, government could feel at liberty to outlaw abortions.
Then they could control birth control, IVF, trans rights, assisted suicide, etc.
I saw the writing on the wall and I'm surprised others took such offence.

It's a snowball effect.
It's our job to stop it from rolling.

* and before anyone freaks out, I agree that people who didn't want vaccines would have to weigh the consequences, such as staying out of society, missing work, or losing some mobility rights for the sake of others.

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ironpony
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16 Jul 2022, 11:57 pm

Oh I see. Well I believed in getting the vaccinations and got them all, but I still had to miss work even though I got them and that was the objection I had with the government, is that vaxxed people, aren't even recognized for it as much, but that is another tangent I guess, off topic.

cyberdad
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17 Jul 2022, 1:59 am

ironpony wrote:

that was the objection I had with the government, is that vaxxed people, aren't even recognized for it as much, but that is another tangent I guess, off topic.

Answered your own question buddy

ironpony
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17 Jul 2022, 2:04 am

Oh how did I answer my own question?

cyberdad
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17 Jul 2022, 2:04 am

ironpony wrote:

Oh how did I answer my own question?

Going off tangent

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17 Jul 2022, 2:06 am

Oh yes I see.

KitLily
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17 Jul 2022, 3:28 am

Re: vaccinations.

I'm wondering. What happens when a virus comes along that kills 99% of us within hours of catching it? Because one will come along, sooner or later. Will people object to getting vaccinated then? I don't think people who live in Ebola regions object to getting vaccinated. I think Ebola death rate is about 80%.

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17 Jul 2022, 9:23 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:

Your views on bodily autonomy seem broadly similar, where we disagree is that I think that the baby is a separate life with it's own autonomy, liberties and rights.

So your application of the Bodily Autonomy Argument to abortion strikes me the same as a slave owner arguing
'That slave is MY property I can destroy it if I want to, MY PROPERTY!! ! MY CHOICE!! !'
That argument only works if you have already accepted the conclusion that the slave is subhuman property and not a human being.
Since I consider both slaves to be human, and children in the womb to be human, I find the application of autonomy arguments to be invalid.

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17 Jul 2022, 9:34 am

SpiceWolf wrote:

IsabellaLinton wrote:

At what point of development in the womb do you think that a fetus is human? Is it human just after conception when it is just a collection of cells? Or later?

What about situations involving preteens or adult pregnancies that are the result of rape?

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17 Jul 2022, 9:37 am

naturalplastic wrote:

If you get covid you could spread it to others...and collapse the whole healthcare system. So unlike pregnancy it isnt really just 'your own body'. Its everyone's body that would be effected by your decision to get vaxed or not.

That's simply not true.
1) The vaccine doesn't work. It doesn't stop you catching it, spreading it, getting sick from it, or passing from it.
It's defective merchandise that doesn't do what it claims to and in many cases is not only ineffective but also harmful.

2) Abortion affects others, most of all the child in the womb who is killed, but their is a whole web of relations in the world, grandparents, husbands, boyfriends. This pretence that others are not affected by abortion is really quite absurd.

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17 Jul 2022, 9:41 am

SpiceWolf wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

Abortion affects others, most of all the child in the womb who is killed, but their is a whole web of relations in the world, grandparents, husbands, boyfriends. This pretence that others are not affected by abortion is really quite absurd.

Sometimes these people will be positively affected by abortion.

Women should be able to decide what they choose to do with their own bodies. My body, my choice.

If I wanted an abortion, I would drive to a state that allowed it if mine didn’t, which is what many women that have the means to do so will do.

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TwilightPrincess
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17 Jul 2022, 9:46 am

SpiceWolf wrote:

IsabellaLinton wrote:

So your application of the Bodily Autonomy Argument to abortion strikes me the same as a slave owner arguing
'That slave is MY property I can destroy it if I want to, MY PROPERTY!! ! MY CHOICE!! !'
That argument only works if you have already accepted the conclusion that the slave is subhuman property and not a human being.
Since I consider both slaves to be human, and children in the womb to be human, I find the application of autonomy arguments to be invalid.

There’s a lapse in logic here: False Equivalency. Slaves are not physically attached to a woman’s body. They also have consciousness and human thoughts and feelings.

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