When the Riots Begin

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That is easy. Eliminate the Welfare State. A certain number of poor people will starve to death or sicken to death but that is a small price to pay for a strong nation.

See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivY2HK777Zg

ruveyn

No.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/busin ... r=1&ref=us

Immigration is an emotional issue. Just remember that if you feel strongly about it, the other side would also fight just as vehemently (or even more so because for them it is a matter of life and death) for what they believe as unjust.

Let us take a different tack. The article above speaks candidly of the shortcomings of how the rate of unemployment is measured in the United States today. The Bureau of Labor Statistics (“BLS”) says that unemployment for May 2009 was 9.5% nationwide. But if you take a broader definition of unemployment and underemployment, the number is much higher. But even the broadest measure of unemployment and underemployment used by the BLS understates the severity of the problem. The BLS undertakes a telephone survey every month called the Current Population Survey during which 60,000 households are called up and polled for information. About 3-5% of those called refuse to answer questions and these are likely to be families facing some kind of economic distress. Also, families or individuals who are dealing with unemployment are likely to be on the move and therefore cannot be contacted using the information that the government has. And there are other problems like the growing homeless population who are never polled and thus never counted. The bottom line is that things are a lot worse than what the government admits it to be.

Obama’s stimulus plan aims to create jobs for Americans. But the money that he is spending is aimed at upgrading the nation’s infrastructure. In other words, the jobs that the Obama plan will create are mostly in construction. The people who are willing and able to work in construction in the United States are what you would call illegal immigrants. The Obama administration is so worried about leakage of employment opportunities from Americans to illegal immigrants that they have proposed ways to ensure that anyone on the payroll in these federally funded projects are in the country legally. It sounds like the bases have been covered, but the building of large scale infrastructure projects have always been messy. People come and go at the worksite and it is impossible to tell who is and who is not a legal resident. To get the work done on time and on budget, contractors usually have no choice but to use illegal migrants. So you see, the solution for America’s employment woes actually help sustain the very illegal immigrants you feel should be denied all human rights.

Where does this leave the legitimate Americans who have no cause to worry of their citizenship claims? Some of you may have gotten the impression that I believe social unrest will begin in Southern California lead by disaffected Latinos, but I wonder if America’s white fallen middle classes will not be the first to make their anger known publicly.

P.S. Do not be so sure that you will not participate in mass pillaging if the opportunity arose. People did exactly that during Hurricane Katrina. But then again they were [removed - M.] and good White folks would never do something so shameful right?

Well, that's a can of worms. Let me tell you how things work here in America (for better or for worse).

These "infrastructure" contracts will be awarded to the lowest bidder. Now, all the bidders know they are supposed to do everything legally, but there will always be those who will either (a) use as substandard a supply line as they can get away with to maximize profit from their agreed price or (b) ignore requirements (like no illegal workers) so they can pay less for labor. So, all the efforts to ensure no illegals are working will likely be circumvented as always because there will be no active investigation or enforcement.

The proponents for very lose immigration claim that the illegals are doing jobs that Americans refuse to do. That is nonsense. First, illegals are often paid much less than the going rate for labor because it's take what you are given or be reported to INS. Second, illegals are often ignorant of labor laws and workplace safety requirements, so it's easier to get them to work in hazardous conditions or do things in an unsafe manner as compared to people who are more aware of their rights as employees. So, even if an American is willing to do the work, they would have to agree to sub-standard wages and working conditions to compete with illegals who are ignorant of what rights and protections they should normally have on the worksite. It's exploitation, pure and simple. It's been done with tenant farmers, and it's been done in mining, and now it's done in construction. Not every employer breaks the law, but a lot of them do.

Worse than that is that the US government KNOWS a lot of illegals are here. Most of them do pay taxes (likely under a stolen Social Security number) and there is no effort to root them out. Only because of massive public outcry has there been any crackdowns at all by INS against the worst offenders (employers who hire illegals). The border to the south is left wide open because the people in power like the flood of cheap laborers who will work for less than people who live here.

Worse than that is the fact that you'd think that the hiring of illegals would keep prices down, but that's a false argument. More likely than not, the employer hiring illegals is just pocketing more money. It's really no different than buying substandard materials and other corner-cutting measures. Save money everywhere you can so you increase your profit margin.

Someone earlier said it best....eliminate the welfare state. Most people drawing welfare are kept on the system, and many of them frankly live better off the dole than they'd get if they went out to work most jobs available to them. Playing the system for a free ride is a better reward than working for a living.

Eliminate the illegal workers and now there are jobs for people. Pay and work environments would have to improve, but it would balance out. The idea that we need illegals for this nation to grow is absurd because we didn't rely on that to grow in the first place.

Every nation in the world (except America, it seems) has immigration policy that is rather strict in its enforcement. Immigration policy is put in place for two main reasons: (1) keep out the riff raff who should not be allowed to enter the country. (2) protect the domestic job market to ensure there is adequate employment opportunity and fair wages for people in the local economy.

The flood of illegals into America has crime going through the roof because they aren't keeping the criminal element out. The flood of illegals undermines the labor market by providing an endless supply of ignorant and cheap labor...disrupting the natural balance of supply and demand.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124753066246235811.html

Another article talking about the unemployment situation in America. Mixed in with some oft held misconceptions about the role of illegal migrants in American society there usually lies a sophisticated understanding as to why they are there and grudging acceptance of their existence. While it is not true to assert that illegal migrants only do the work that Americans are unwilling to perform, these workers are so deeply embedded into the American economy that any real effort to remove them would precipitate economic and social collapse. Also some people do benefit tremendously from hiring illegal migrants even as others find that they are disadvantaged because of it. Since there is nothing that can be done to stop people from walking across the border and because there are plenty of Americans willing to benefit from the labor of these workers, we can all safely assume that the problem will not go away. In this sense the debate is somewhat moot which is why I feel all the cling-clang and boom-boom coming out of California over this issue serves only to hurt and divide.

Read the Wall Street Journal article though, it was actually quite well written. The author is a true American journalist in that he is an eternal optimist with regards to America. He believes that rate of unemployment will hit 11% from the 9.5% now and then stay high for the foreseeable future. I believe that unemployment in America will move much higher as falling aggregate demand actually forces more job losses which then pushes aggregate demand down even further. The problem is that for many people who have fallen off the ladder, it is very hard to see how they might get back into the game. Without a job they cannot consume and without consumption the job creation engine stalls.

America is in effect experiencing a period of forced frugality. No one knows just how long it will last but despite the direness of the situation, I have not seen the Obama administration offer any concrete plans that will turn back the tide. Thus far all his plans have been pedestrian and actually likely to benefit the ‘wrong’ people (read: illegal migrants). Perhaps the truth is that there is nothing he or anyone else can do.

Too simple. There are different types of construction companies. Those that build houses often do hire many low skilled immigrants to do dry wall, paint, and hang cabinets. But in my experience, construction companies that build roads and bridges are much less likely to do so. Also, government funded projects are subjected to higher standards - including regular inspections, where a company is required to verify the status of the employees.

Sadly, I see little changing. I hate to sound against the "global economy" for the sake of being against it, but tariffs and trade limits where imposed to protect the domestic marketplace. The rationale is very simple.

What it costs to live in America is not the same as it costs to live in India.

An Indian company can do work cheaper than an American company because of the differences in cost of living, business regulations, taxation, etc. Import/export tariffs and trade limits prevented what came shortly after they were negated....mass exporting or importing to/from nations with much lower costs of production.

Goods in American stores were more from overseas. Those nations got more income (good), but the lack of "Made in America" goods resulted in workers being displaced from good paying jobs. Yeah, the imported goods were cheaper, and many workers found new jobs, but the cycle continued to repeat.

Move more new job categories off shore where it can be done cheaper. Lay off workers. Get cheaper made goods to compete against "American Made" because local companies can't operate that cheap. Put American businesses in a position to outsource labor or go bankrupt. It's round-and-round.

The goal to keep prices down but still turn a profit fuels going to offshore production, outsourced labor contracts and hiring of illegals to work at wages no sane American would accept for the work expected to be done. POLITICIANS have gone along with this practice largely because those who have the political clout to fund election campaigns benefit from this practice. Rather than looking out for the American citizen, the politician is looking out for their own interests.

All of that excludes the motive by many political people to embrace a "global economy." The inherent problem known about going "global" with our economy is that it puts everyone supposedly on a level economic field. Well, that means American can only go down. We are at the top. When it's over, America will be like every other nation that embraces this....extreme economic stratification. The poor and the very rich (because the rich always ensure that their wealth isn't to be shared with the unwashed masses).

I suppose you think the solution to all wars would be nuclear weapons, right?

the problem w rioters is that theyre unarmed and untrained. once they get weapons and militia tactics under control they stand a much better chance (but then again they change definition from rioters to 'armed rebels' but im all for those too)

i want city-rioters to bring guns. learn how to aim.
shoot cops. (in the eyes.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/21/busin ... e.html?hpw

Yet again another silly economic puff piece that gets part of the problem right but still fails to put the big picture together. For those of you who do not know, $8 million in annual revenues is almost too small for a printed circuit board company to justify its existence. And these guys have been around for 57 years. Talk about being lethargic! But like all good rile’em up jingoists, they blame the Chinese and call for protectionist measures that will bring everyone down.

Absolutely - eliminate the people, and virtually all political/social problems are solved.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... id=topnews

Is it not wonderful? The border is better patrolled so people have decided to stay put in the United States rather than risk crossing it again by going back to Mexico to ride out the storm.

Not sure that border patrols have really changed much - it is mostly symbolic. A short term unintended consequence of real border security might be less travel both ways. But it is easier to get back into Mexico.

The biggest push/pull factor in illegal immigration is economics - when there are jobs, people will come. When there are no jobs, people return to their villages. Border control has been more of a speed-bump, less of a real barrier.

What is interesting about the article is that it says people are not returning to their villages even though the economy is in the dumps. Although unemployment is soaring through the roof, migrants are still crossing the border from Mexico to find work in the United States. There must work available for them if they are still coming otherwise how can they afford to live in the States?

Mexico is a cesspool of humanity. Even in these bad times, the hope of what they would find here is better than staying there. However, flooding even more into the US only makes our employment situation worse.

I already own multiple weapons and have a stockpile of ammo and canned food. So I am ready. Whats your plan?