Stigma of the Tea Party?

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LKL
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16 May 2010, 4:41 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Orwell wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

That is hardly a surprise. The media which are largely liberal and statist biased will choose the most ridiculous and ludicrous instances of protest to discredit the protest in toto.

The "liberal media" is nothing more than a myth promulgated by conservatives with a persecution complex.

The major media outlets and its hacks and flacks promulgate the notion that the government is the driving force of our society. It is not. At best it is a regulating force to keep things from getting out of hand. Inventors, workers, enterprisers, discoverers, and adventurers are the driving force of our society. Most of our politicians are ignorant with regard to science, technology and the know-how to get things made properly. The media promote the view of these vile creatures (most of the time) and oppose it little of the time.

ruveyn

I would agree, except to add that the media pay far too much attention to themselves-as-news as well, while simultaneously claiming to not 'make news.'

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16 May 2010, 4:44 pm

Mudboy wrote:

LKL wrote:

Mudboy-
yes, I was insulting. Deliberately so. Adress the points I have made, or stop pretending.

Your points are mostly red herrings that have nothing to do with the actual issues. You are ignorant and rude. PLONK

Ok, not willing to actually argue the points. Noted.

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16 May 2010, 7:31 pm

Mudboy wrote:

Orwell wrote:

The fact that we institutionalized slavery, barred women from voting, and even among white men disenfranchised all but the wealthy makes us some kind of classless exception to the rest of the world? You do realize that we were the last Western nation to abolish slavery? Only Russia was slower in getting rid of serfdom, but serfs had more legal rights than slaves.

America was not and still is not perfect. A Democratic Republic is just a much better system than communism, theocracy, monarchy, or other forms of oligarchy. Please explain how this is not true.

For the bulk of your history only land owning white gentlemen could vote. That is classism pure and simple. It was built right into the system. Currently that isnt true, but only through the efforts of liberalism, suffrage and the equal rights movement has that changed.

Further, those votes were done in public so cronyism and bullying were rampant. People voted along the lines of their bosses and churches or they were beaten or ostracized.

Long story short, you probably wouldnt be permitted to vote for your government of choice. Do you own a house?

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16 May 2010, 8:13 pm

Fuzzy wrote:

Mudboy wrote:

America was not and still is not perfect. A Democratic Republic is just a much better system than communism, theocracy, monarchy, or other forms of oligarchy. Please explain how this is not true.

For the bulk of your history only land owning white gentlemen could vote. That is classism pure and simple. It was built right into the system. Currently that isnt true, but only through the efforts of liberalism, suffrage and the equal rights movement has that changed.
Further, those votes were done in public so cronyism and bullying were rampant. People voted along the lines of their bosses and churches or they were beaten or ostracized.
Long story short, you probably wouldnt be permitted to vote for your government of choice. Do you own a house?

Yes, I own my house, so I would be able to vote. I left home at 18 to seek my fortune without help from my family. Now I am nearly 50 and I am doing OK.
Thank you for the history. Your reply seems to support that the US is still improving. However, your answer did not address the question of why we should support corporate or other forms of oligarchy to lead the US.

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Fuzzy
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16 May 2010, 9:17 pm

Mudboy wrote:

Well, I dont know that the US is improving. It seems to be on a downswing, but generally I see the world as becoming a better place.

I did not answer the questions about supporting corporate/oligarchy because I am not exactly for it.

Politically I am a fiscal conservative, while I also hold a lot of values which would be considered liberal in the states. Some of this comes from the particulars of where I live. In my part of Canada the land was largely colonized by the displaced and disenfranchised of eastern Europe. As such the prevailing attitude seems to be live and let live and the quiet practice of personal beliefs.

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16 May 2010, 9:39 pm

The tea party is about reversing that downswing. Politically, I am a fiscal conservative, social liberal. I like the idea of live and let live.

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16 May 2010, 11:16 pm

Fuzzy wrote:

Further, those votes were done in public so cronyism and bullying were rampant. People voted along the lines of their bosses and churches or they were beaten or ostracized.

During Reconstruction, Southern voters were supervised by armed Union troops and you got to have a special-colored ballot depending on who you wanted to vote for. In 1896, factory workers were told that if Bryan won the election they should not bother to show up for work the next day because they were all fired. You are correct; we have long failed to live up to our proclaimed goal of democratic governance. I personally doubt that any meaningful democracy can even exist, much less that it would be a good idea.

@Mudboy re the US improving: Our political culture is stagnant, with a lack of new ideas and one of the two major parties in complete disarray. Political discourse is being dominated increasingly by unstable fringe elements, and there is not at the moment any viable alternative to what the Democrats are offering us (and I'm no happier about that fact than you are). Both parties are bought and paid for by corporations, and although this has been the case for a long time it seems unlikely to get better anytime soon.

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17 May 2010, 12:42 am

Orwell wrote:

Our political culture is stagnant, with a lack of new ideas and one of the two major parties in complete disarray. Political discourse is being dominated increasingly by unstable fringe elements, and there is not at the moment any viable alternative to what the Democrats are offering us (and I'm no happier about that fact than you are). Both parties are bought and paid for by corporations, and although this has been the case for a long time it seems unlikely to get better anytime soon.

I agree. That is what caused the tea parties to arise. The reaction from the democrats is to discredit it as a republican organization, and the republicans to try to make it come true. On top of that, the media is trying to make them seem like a fringe group, when they are mostly just average citizens tired of current political climate.

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17 May 2010, 12:51 am

Mudboy wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Hm. I actually was listing the Tea Parties as part of what is wrong in our current political culture. They are masses of grossly misinformed people who don't even know what they're angry at. The fact that they are increasingly politically significant is disastrous.

Also, I disagree with you about how the Tea Parties arose. They came about because the conservative media outlets were very effective in demonizing Obama. The Tea Parties are in essence a reaction to Obama's election.

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17 May 2010, 1:06 am

Orwell wrote:

Mudboy wrote:

Quote:

Outsourcing and free trade policies are why there is no long term job stability like our parents and grandparents had.

That's more because of the dynamics of the modern economy; things change, and you can't just keep doing the same thing for half a century. In the good old days, you not only had job security, you also knew that your great-grandchildren would spend their entire lives doing the exact same thing your great-grandparents did for their entire lives—namely, trying to eke a pathetic living out of subsistence farming.

From what I understand, jobs were much more stable in America during the "Golden Age of Capitalism" after WWII and income inequality was nowhere near as severe as it is today.

Haven't real wages declined?

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17 May 2010, 1:07 am

Orwell's considered pretty right on the trade issue. Most economists think that the impact of technology is at least the same, if not larger than the impact of trade on low wage positions.

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17 May 2010, 1:20 am

Master_Pedant wrote:

From what I understand, jobs were much more stable in America during the "Golden Age of Capitalism" after WWII and income inequality was nowhere near as severe as it is today.

Compared to now, yes jobs were more stable. But today job security means your career has hit a dead end. You are correct that income inequality is greater than it once was; however, this seems to be more that the rich have gotten obscenely rich rather than that the middle class has gotten poorer.

Quote:

Haven't real wages declined?

According to Wikipedia, yes, although their own graph does not seem to support such a claim.

(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_wage)
To me, it looks pretty much the same at the start and the end, with occasional fluctuations in either direction.

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17 May 2010, 1:24 am

http://www.workinglife.org/wiki/Wages+a ... (1964-2004)

Looks like an overall decline.

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17 May 2010, 1:25 am

Master_Pedant wrote:

From what I understand, jobs were much more stable in America during the "Golden Age of Capitalism"

For different reasons than most people think.

The war generation was small and coupled with losses in the boomers parents generation, along with rapid advances in consumerism, baby boomers had open paths to advance in their careers. They shot up into management positions early, which lead to Generation X's career failures as there was no longer much upward mobility.

This is a Canadian book but it deals with the American boom as well... you might enjoy boom bust and echo http://www.amazon.com/Boom-Bust-Echo-20 ... 1551990296. its a slim book dealing with demographic groups from 1900 to modern day. It outlines the difference between Canada and the US and touches on Australia, and discusses at length the lack of a boom generation in Europe.

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17 May 2010, 1:25 am

Looks like we both posted broken links.

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17 May 2010, 1:51 am

Orwell wrote:

Looks like we both posted broken links.

Hopefully FIXED LINK.

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