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Awesomelyglorious
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12 Nov 2010, 7:39 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
I will also point out that this bashing of Christianity is off-topic. You're bashing Christianity and Judaism to avoid having to defend Atheism. I went along with you going about this for a few pages to see if you would make a point, however it now looks like you're just trying to distract from the actual topic.

Well, I think the real issue is that no theisms that exist that are upheld in the mainstream actually don't have the issues that these people bring up. This is why in practice, it wouldn't really matter. As "liberty-freedom God" isn't something anybody has a coherent belief in. There is either a Christian God, a Jewish God, or an Islamic God, or there is atheism, and the former choices really don't justify your position. As such, it is hard to say "atheism is a threat" when, compared to the relevant alternatives, it is not so problematic.



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12 Nov 2010, 8:40 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
However the fact their are no consequences when you die, it comes down to doing whatever you feel like and who cares about other people.


This is why I often feel that Santa has a better grasp of morality than the bible does. Whatever happened to "you better be good for goodness sake?" I believe that truly good morals are exhibited by the person who chooses to do the right thing without any concern for his/her own consequences.



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12 Nov 2010, 9:00 pm

LKL wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
However the fact their are no consequences when you die, it comes down to doing whatever you feel like and who cares about other people.


You have it wrong; with Christianity, you can be forgiven for any act, no matter how heinous. You can murder a schoolbus full of children, and as long as you 'take Jesus into your heart' before they fry you, you'll end up in heaven.


Just saying, "I believe in Jesus Christ," doesn't cut it...

If you want to complain about violence look at Islam and the killing Infidels in Jihad where you get to go to heaven and get X number of virgins to serve you and cater to your every whim.



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12 Nov 2010, 9:00 pm

number5 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
However the fact their are no consequences when you die, it comes down to doing whatever you feel like and who cares about other people.


This is why I often feel that Santa has a better grasp of morality than the bible does. Whatever happened to "you better be good for goodness sake?" I believe that truly good morals are exhibited by the person who chooses to do the right thing without any concern for his/her own consequences.[/quote

A basic sense of decency probably arises out of growing up in a family where the members cared for each other and community decency grew out of extending that family interaction to the world in general. Sometimes religious dogma helps. Frequently it hinders and if people grew up in a lousy family that doesn't help either.



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12 Nov 2010, 9:16 pm

imbatshitcrazy wrote:
not to mention bashing of stem cell research that could've saved lives.


I'm gonna call you out on that one, because you are distorting what their objection was. They were against, EMBRYONIC Stem Cell reseach, NOT Stem Cell Research in general. You CAN get stem cells from sources other than Embryos, such as the umbilical cord that come out with a baby at birth and now they can get stem cells from skin cells. Both of those examples are completely okay as far as the church is concerned.

And if you want to talk about the Holocaust, there is evidence that Adolf Hitler was an Atheist as was Joseph Stalin. The fact that people followed orders and happened to be Christian doesn't mean all of Christianity is to blame. Should we blame every German single German for the Holocaust, or the French (because a lot of French people actively helped the Nazis).

Fact is a lot of you haven't answered my argument and instead have gone about trying to bash Christianity to distract from the issue. I don't know where you get your perverse hatred of Christianity but right now if you want to look at the intolerant ones look in a mirror.



number5
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12 Nov 2010, 9:32 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
I don't know where you get your perverse hatred of Christianity but right now if you want to look at the intolerant ones look in a mirror.


...said the person who suggested that atheism is a threat to freedom. :roll:



Inuyasha
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12 Nov 2010, 9:40 pm

number5 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
I don't know where you get your perverse hatred of Christianity but right now if you want to look at the intolerant ones look in a mirror.


...said the person who suggested that atheism is a threat to freedom. :roll:


I was making an observation to a point I noticed Atheists were unable to adequately defend and still can't defend.

If you believe government gives you your rights, then government can take those rights away from you arbitrarily. You have no business complaining about it either.

Furthermore morality can change at a whim, whichever way the wind blows.

Who decides what is moral, which people get to decide it. What if Person A's morality differs from Person B who is right? It boils down to whomever has the power makes the rules. The argument that human morality is universal is a load of garbage, what is moral to one society isn't moral to another.

I don't hate Atheists, I think they are in error as to their assessments but I have no ill will towards Atheists. I also don't believe in trying to force you into Christianity, but I am getting seriously annoyed with you trying to bash me and others that happen to be Christian or Jewish.



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12 Nov 2010, 9:54 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
And if you want to talk about the Holocaust, there is evidence that Adolf Hitler was an Atheist as was Joseph Stalin. The fact that people followed orders and happened to be Christian doesn't mean all of Christianity is to blame. Should we blame every German single German for the Holocaust, or the French (because a lot of French people actively helped the Nazis).

Godwin alert!

Okay, first of all, yeah, Stalin was an atheist, but he practically elevated himself to a sort of god status. He pretty much made a religion for people to follow. The things he did were in no way caused by atheism. They were caused by lust for power.

As for Hitler, well, let's take a look at some Hitler quotes, shall we? How about we begin with his famous book, Mein Kampf?
Adolf Hitler wrote:
"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."

"Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time."

"I had so often sung 'Deutschland über Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction."

"Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children."

"What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator."

"But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty."

"In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily towards a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged."

"Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise."

"Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it."

"It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god."

"It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions."

"That this is possible may not be denied in a world where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy, obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the Church. Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created?"

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."

There, that about covers him-- oh wait, what? Yes of course, how could I forget the stuff he said out loud?
Adolf Hitler wrote:
"To do justice to God and our own conscience, we have turned once more to the German Volk."

"I go the way that Providence dictates with the assurance of a sleepwalker."

"May divine providence bless us with enough courage and enough determination to perceive within ourselves this holy German space."

"We don't ask the Almighty, 'Lord, make us free!" We want to be active, to work, to work together, so that when the hour comes that we appear before the Lord we can say to him: 'Lord, you see that we have changed.' The German people is no longer a people of dishonor and shame, of self-destructiveness and cowardice. No, Lord, the German people is once more strong in spirit, strong in determination, strong in the willingness to bear every sacrifice. Lord, now bless our battle and our freedom, and therefore our German people and fatherland."

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

"The Catholic Church should not deceive herself: if National Socialism does not succeed in defeating Bolshevism, then Church and Christianity in Europe too are finished. Bolshevism is the mortal enemy of the Church as much as of Fascism. ...Man cannot exist without belief in God. The soldier who for three and four days lies under intense bombardment needs a religious prop."

Yup, those are the words of an atheist, alright. Now, what was this evidence you spoke of but failed to specify?

Inuyasha wrote:
Fact is a lot of you haven't answered my argument and instead have gone about trying to bash Christianity to distract from the issue. I don't know where you get your perverse hatred of Christianity but right now if you want to look at the intolerant ones look in a mirror.

I completely deflated your entire initial argument when I explained why "If there is no God then our rights come from Government" is a false dichotomy.


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number5
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12 Nov 2010, 10:07 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
number5 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
I don't know where you get your perverse hatred of Christianity but right now if you want to look at the intolerant ones look in a mirror.


...said the person who suggested that atheism is a threat to freedom. :roll:


I was making an observation to a point I noticed Atheists were unable to adequately defend and still can't defend.

If you believe government gives you your rights, then government can take those rights away from you arbitrarily. You have no business complaining about it either.

Furthermore morality can change at a whim, whichever way the wind blows.

Who decides what is moral, which people get to decide it. What if Person A's morality differs from Person B who is right? It boils down to whomever has the power makes the rules. The argument that human morality is universal is a load of garbage, what is moral to one society isn't moral to another.

I don't hate Atheists, I think they are in error as to their assessments but I have no ill will towards Atheists. I also don't believe in trying to force you into Christianity, but I am getting seriously annoyed with you trying to bash me and others that happen to be Christian or Jewish.


What is your point? If you're saying that rights are given to us by the gov, then yes, you are correct. I'm happy to enjoy many rights in this country in this time, but going back 50 years or so, I might be more limited. I'm also fortunate enough to not be gay. I still fail to see what this has to do with Christianity or Judaism, or even God for that matter.

On morals changing, yes, that is true too. Humans as a whole have a very different set of morals today than they did thousands of years ago. It is also true that whomever is in power makes the rules. Since when is this news?

I have no ill will towards Christians, Jews, Muslims ( 8O ), or even Atheists (which I'm not). I do take issue with hypocrisy and double standards, though.



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12 Nov 2010, 10:11 pm

@Vince

Again bashing Christianity just to avoid having to defend Atheism isn't an answer it is a maneuver typically used by politicians to stick to their talking points.

As far as Hitler it is debatable as to whether he was a Christian or an Atheist or just plain insane. Stalin was an atheist and an egomaniac.


However the point is concerning rights and where they come from and morals. Stop with the cop outs and actually answer the questions and the argument. Don't keep bringing up Christianity as a scapegoat because I know it is nothing more than a distraction.

You said people decide morals, well which people? I'm not saying Atheists are all evil, I'm saying there is a significant flaw in Atheism itself.



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12 Nov 2010, 10:39 pm

There are no flaws in Atheism. Atheism is the belief that there are no gods. Nothing to do with morals. No claims are being made. There's nothing to defend. Atheism is not a world view.

There are various places to get morals, such as religion (Islam is a good example of why religion is bad for morals), logic (look at Humanism for example), animals and more.

Just because some Atheists did bad things, doesn't mean it was BECAUSE they were Atheists. I can spin it your way by saying Catholic priests molested boys because they were Catholic.

Everybody decides their own morals, some by influence, some by thinking.

The government decides on rights (think about black people not having rights and see where it says so in the bible they shouldn't.), look at China for a good example of that.

Humans are social animals, we're meant to work together by instinct.



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12 Nov 2010, 10:45 pm

Okay so if your rights come from Government that means that Government can arbitrarily take away your rights and you can't complain.



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12 Nov 2010, 10:49 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Okay so if your rights come from Government that means that Government can arbitrarily take away your rights and you can't complain.


They can take away our rights, they can take away yours. I don't see your point. They're part of the law system.



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12 Nov 2010, 10:50 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Again bashing Christianity just to avoid having to defend Atheism isn't an answer it is a maneuver typically used by politicians to stick to their talking points.
/.../
However the point is concerning rights and where they come from and morals. Stop with the cop outs and actually answer the questions and the argument. Don't keep bringing up Christianity as a scapegoat because I know it is nothing more than a distraction.

You said people decide morals, well which people? I'm not saying Atheists are all evil, I'm saying there is a significant flaw in Atheism itself.

Which people? All of us, together. It's called democracy. Look it up.

Atheism isn't a dogmatic set of rules, it is simply the state of not having accepted the claim "god exists" (whether it has been wholly dismissed or not). The "significant flaw" you seem to see in it is that it's not a religion. As I see it, that's not a flaw, that's just what it is. It's a lack of faith. And I posit that faith is not the source of freedom.

I'm not shifting the goal posts. I'm pointing out the holes in your reasoning. Atheism isn't a thing, it's just the absence of belief in gods. As such, it can only be discussed in contrast to belief in gods, and I have to use examples. I could sit here and poke holes in greek or norse mythology, but that would be silly, since it's doubtful you'd ever suggest that our rights should be decided by Zeus or Odin. I have to use your religion as example, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I've gotten the impression that you're Christian. And if you, as a Christian, start a thread claiming that atheism is a threat to freedom, you cannot expect not to have the relationship between your own religion and freedom called into question, since Atheism is only a concept in contrast to other concepts. If religions can't be discussed in a discussion about Atheism, then Atheism cannot be discussed. It's like trying to defend the lack of belief in Santa Claus without being allowed to talk about Santa Claus. It seems to me that you don't understand how a discussion works.

Oh, and...

Inuyasha wrote:
As far as Hitler it is debatable as to whether he was a Christian or an Atheist or just plain insane.

The fact that he was just plain insane is quite clear. But that doesn't change the fact that he was a just plain insane theist. More quotes!
Adolf Hitler wrote:
"For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!'"

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith ...we need believing people."

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

And also...
The New York Times, May 14, 1933, page 2, on Hitler's outlawing atheistic and freethinking groups in the Spring of 1933, after the Enabling Act authorizing Hitler to rule by decree wrote:
"In Freethinkers Hall, which before the Nazi resurgence was the national headquarters of the German Freethinkers League, the Berlin Protestant church authorities have opened a bureau for advice to the public in church matters. Its chief object is to win back former churchgoers and assist those who have not previously belonged to any religious congregation in obtaining church membership. The German Freethinkers League, which was swept away by the national revolution, was the largest of such organizations in Germany. It had about 500,000 members..."

Associated Press, February 23, 1933 wrote:
"A campaign against the 'godless movement' and an appeal for Catholic support were launched by Chancellor Adolf Hitler's forces."

I have yet to see one single piece of evidence from you supporting your claim that Adolf Hitler was (or even may have been) an atheist. I've provided evidence not only suggesting, but confirming that he was not.


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Last edited by Vince on 12 Nov 2010, 10:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

imbatshitcrazy
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12 Nov 2010, 10:53 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
imbatshitcrazy wrote:
not to mention bashing of stem cell research that could've saved lives.


I'm gonna call you out on that one, because you are distorting what their objection was. They were against, EMBRYONIC Stem Cell reseach, NOT Stem Cell Research in general. You CAN get stem cells from sources other than Embryos, such as the umbilical cord that come out with a baby at birth and now they can get stem cells from skin cells. Both of those examples are completely okay as far as the church is concerned.

And if you want to talk about the Holocaust, there is evidence that Adolf Hitler was an Atheist as was Joseph Stalin. The fact that people followed orders and happened to be Christian doesn't mean all of Christianity is to blame. Should we blame every German single German for the Holocaust, or the French (because a lot of French people actively helped the Nazis).

Fact is a lot of you haven't answered my argument and instead have gone about trying to bash Christianity to distract from the issue. I don't know where you get your perverse hatred of Christianity but right now if you want to look at the intolerant ones look in a mirror.


joseph stalin was an atheist because he supported communism. communism forbids any kind of religion because they can clash with the government. and communism=big government. do the math



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13 Nov 2010, 12:14 am

@ Vince

Was he outlawing them because they were atheists or was he outlawing them because they were a rival political party...

@ Jookia

There are such things as an unjust law.

For example if they were suddenly say tomorrow we no longer have the freedom of speech by making a law that says that, apparently by Atheism's standpoint they are perfectly able to do that. They have the power they make the rules.