Suicide

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The whole discussion about whether or not God (or the Creator) created evil is irrelevant and damaging in the context of discussing suicidal threads. First of all, God is not a concept everybody can relate to - especially not those who derive truths from empirical facts and logic as opposed to the ramblings of the spiritually inclined. And secondly, you effectively ignore how depressive people's ultimate wish is to be understood, which is almost always a postulated prerequisite to being loved, and has nothing to do with what you guys are chatting about.

True, sorry for going so off topic.

Interesting that Vex would point this out, but it's true. The Bible never says that suicide has eternal consequences of Hell.

The conclusions that one must draw about a suicide going to Hell are the same conclusions one must draw about committing any sin. The usual theory is that suicide results in death and thus the one who commits suicide cannot ask for forgiveness for the sin of suicide.

The problem with that, though, is because sin is such a prevalent part of human nature, it's unlikely that any person, even a Christian, even CAN ask to be forgiven for all sins. You have to be able to remember, write it down if you have to, every single sin you've committed during the day and pray for forgiveness for every tiny insignificant infraction. Sin is sin, no matter how serious you think it is. Sin is still sin even if you aren't aware that you did something wrong. Even accidents are sins. So if you committed a sin that you weren't aware of, you won't ask for forgiveness. And if you don't ask for forgiveness, you can't receive God's grace. And without grace, you're doomed to Hell.

Which, of course, contradicts that the Bible teaches all who accept Jesus as Savior receives grace. Though one SHOULD, I think, come before God and confess sins, the point is that all sins--past, present, and future--are already forgiven. Asking for forgiveness, which you already have, is an act of humility in recognition that no matter the condition of the soul you are still an imperfect, though saved, sinner.

Thus a person who commits suicide is still guilty, but forgiven.

Which leads to the question regarding suicide and hell that is relevant: What is that condition of a person's soul who commits suicide?

Or: Is suicide something that a BELIEVER would commit?

As I see it, that's the real question. CAN a believer commit suicide? If yes, then because the believer is already absolved of all sin, suicide just happens to be the last sin he or she will ever commit. If suicide is something no believer would do, then it is a sin that only those who don't believe would commit, condemning them to an eternity in hell for their faithlessness.

The religious debate has no effect on suicidal people, apart from making them feel even less loved unless they "accept Jesus" (as a general term) - something of which can be extremely hard to do once you've done at least a little bit of rational thinking. And many suicidal people have (or at least think they have) considered all options using rational thinking en masse. Including that the fact of the matter is their problems could easily be unsolvable anyway - at least without unbearable amounts of work, or faking a different personality - which would defeat the purpose all together.

The general theory is that no individual - trained or not - are able to talk you out of any depression, because they can't tell you anything you've not already considered, because they simply don't understand you.

The real problem, however, is usually that the depressed individual's view of that of being understood is vastly overvalued. I suggest a better approach, which would be to show them how being understood is not really that important. In fact, absolutely nobody are perfectly understanding anybody else. Perfect understanding is intrinsically impossible - because you'd need the exact same brain and have had the exact same experiences from the exact same perspectives. You'd have to be the person you're trying to understand in order to do it perfectly. All there is left to understanding anybody else is limited to the boundaries of language and observed behavior - and this is always delivered with a good bunch of belief.

Well, this is the PPR forum after all, and posts asking for validation and so on really belong in "Haven," not to mention the medical causative factors really belong in the "Health" or "General Autism" sections. Regardless of the religious debate's effect on suicidal people, the religious debate is important because people who are depressed and might consider suicide may be religious and may had it drilled into their heads that you get a one-way ticket straight to hell for it. I can't speak for other religions, but I can say there is no Biblical evidence to back up certain traditional Christian views about the fate of a suicide victim's soul. Also, automatically sending someone to hell (in a manner of speaking) is horribly judgmental and unnecessary (and inappropriate) of a Christian. It can paint an unnecessarily negative portrait of that person, which can also be disgraceful to the family. A person's friends/family are the real victims of suicide, to say nothing for the suicidal person himself. It's important that one's view of suicide as a Christian is correct and Biblically justified in order to prevent further emotional damage when things go wrong.

It's also false to assume that Christianity is extremely difficult for those who have done "at least a little bit of rational thinking," but I suppose that's a different topic for a different thread.


Here I completely agree. I'm plagued with temper tantrums, profound depression, and anxiety for which I have no reason or explanation. The only explanation I can come up with is that it's just part of how my brain is wired (or unwired) and I've had to deal with that pain for practically my entire life. In my experience, much of that is fueled by my inability to express myself effectively and appropriately coupled with what seems to me others' outright refusal to even try to understand. What's funny about this whole thing is that I found that comprehensively withdrawing from society at large to be the most beneficial and oddly therapeutic existence. I can't completely avoid society, of course, but I can limit my contact in such ways that the contact I DO have with other people is overwhelmingly positive. Building relationships that aren't contingent on anyone understanding ME has also helped, for instance when I'm teaching young children. All that concerns me is that there is a task at hand and we WILL keep to it (don't like it, get another teacher). Kids have a funny way about them, too, because they just love EVERYONE, something I can take advantage of because I get all the smiles and positive conversation (well, mostly positive--kids have issues, too, and I get to hear some things about parents that I'd be just as well-off not knowing). They see past my bad days and are unconditionally forgiving. All I simply try to do is return the favor. They don't have to understand or hear about ME to get that.

So, yeah, being "understood" probably is overvalued. All of the above works for ME and helps ease much of the anxiety. I also have a lot of free time to concentrate on things that are important to me, and I'm working to make the transition from my special interests being "spare time" interests into full-time. If I was overly concerned about being "understood," I'd be a wreck because people other than my closest friends just really aren't that interested.

Just ignore what markko wrote. markko is irrelevant now. Religion and *christianaintity has nothing to do with what I am talking about. It has nothing to do with The Creator.

Angelrho, leave out the condemnation and hell fire. No one is going to hell.

And Ken, we are not having a "religious debate". Maybe they were in the past but religion has no significance in the points that I am making. I am telling the suicidal person that they can be redeemed through understanding The Creator, thus understanding themselves or however way you want to look at it. When a person understands The Creator and Its ways and why things happen the way that they do then everything makes sense. You see with a clearer perspective and you are no longer sad or troubled with the way that things are. Life does actually make sense. It is only when you are in tune with The Creator when this is possible and the result is happiness and new found respect for life and everything that exists because of it. You will no longer want to die but you will want to live and do as many things possible because of your new found appreciation for what The Creator has given you.

No one is going to hell on the suicide argument. At issue is the state of salvation of the person who commits suicide. If saved, then suicide does not result in eternal condemnation. If NOT saved, the suicide victim is destined for hell, anyway.

The problem remains that suicide affects more than just the person who kills himself. The problem remains that there are those who consider themselves Christians--and they may very well be true, saved-by-the-grace-of-God Christians--who somehow read into their own personal doctrine that suicide has eternal consequences beyond death, i.e. hell. This creates a problem for the suicide's survivors because they have to live believing they will never see their loved one again. It's especially tragic for one who has always believed himself to be a saved Christian overwhelmed by suicidal thoughts and self-destructive behavior who feels he must come to terms with somehow believing that God never loved him, that he is somehow fallen from grace, and that the hereafter is hopeless.

But if there IS hope in Jesus, then someone contemplating suicide can come to other conclusions, such as if he failed in a moment in which suicide became a reality, he would be rescued in death--since he is already rescued from death. The Bible teaches the value of all living things, especially human beings, and reinforces the special place of importance that God places on all of us, even the most "worthless" of us. Preserving life, even one's own, is not unreasonable but is sufficient to choose an alternative to suicide. It also lets survivors know that the sin of suicide is forgivable and that death incurred in suicide is not a permanent condition. It lets them "off the hook," so to speak, and allows them to find hope and comfort.

If a person has NOT received salvation in the living years, of course, it's a moot point.

And you also have to consider what suicide means. That is, does suicide show a lack of faith that wouldn't touch someone who believed? Can someone who believes commit suicide? When a believer commits suicide, is it a choice? Or is it something beyond his immediate control, such as neurological disorder?

The "classic" argument is that unresolved or unconfessed sin condemns someone to hell. Suicide cannot by nature be resolved. But that logic fails. I don't see how it is possible to go to your grave, willingly or not, without some measure of unresolved or unconfessed sin--even sin you weren't even aware of. So by the "traditional" view we are ALL going to hell whether we believe or not. That alone should give suicide survivors some degree of hope that even suicide can be forgiven.

Did you just say that we are ALL going to hell? haha. Okay. You are irrelevant to this conversation unless you want to add something positive, then you can but everyone will ignore you if you keep preaching about fire and brimstone. We are beyond that. And it does nothing but take us off topic.

As much as I find fundamental Christianity quite ridiculous with many of the claims it makes, I find New Age beliefs to be even more. We should all be beyond Christian nonsense and New Age nonsense, but a lot of people continue to be trapped.

Who is preaching? The Christian viewpoint on suicide is relevant because even Christians are affected by suicidal tendencies/behaviors; moreover Christians are affected when one of their own commits suicide. Some Christians have the mistaken belief that suicide is an automatic, one-way trip to hell, which CAN in some cases affect how fellow Christians (who believe that) relate to suicide survivors (family/friends of someone left behind when someone commits suicide. Suicide itself isn't survivable by the one who commits suicide. A person can only survive a failed suicide attempt). My point is that this view and certain reactions to this view are unscriptural. Suicide is traumatic to survivors, and an unscriptural view of suicide is not helpful for Christians.

Now, if you aren't a Christian and this doesn't apply to you, then fine. But you can't say it isn't relevant.

Yeah, I agree with you...... I mean do you even know what you are talking about? I have nothing to do with new age ideas either. hahaha. This idea has been since the beginning of existence!

For future reference, people really need to pay attention to what I am writing before they assume that I am part of any belief that you have heard about. Focus! Chop. Chop.

I already said that it isn't relevant. haha. No more hell talk. It does absolutely nothing to help the situation.

So you are saying that Christians aren't affected by suicide?

Tuning in with The Creator? Sounds like New Age to me.