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Over-extended Feminism

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Do you think feminism is getting over-extended in the West?
yes 39%  39%  [ 14 ]
no 61%  61%  [ 22 ]
Total votes : 36

TeaEarlGreyHot
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05 Apr 2011, 6:38 pm

ikorack wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
*facepalm* You're still missing my point.


Explain it again?


Okay. One more time because life is calling. lol

Social views on things like make-up and shaved legs should be changed, not laws. Sure, everyone is free to be attracted to whatever the want, but people need to realize it's not okay to turn away a female job applicant because she doesn't wear make-up.

Feminism these days is about bringing on these kinds of social changes. We've already got most of the laws we need in place to protect us, we just need society itself to embrace all of us... not just the June Cleavers and Paris Hiltons.


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Bethie
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05 Apr 2011, 6:40 pm

If men and women were really so fundamentally different as human beings,
the latter wouldn't have fought tooth and nail for
voting rights
property rights
reproductive freedom
access to education
career opportunities

It is in that same spirit comes the idea that women have the fundamental right to be considered attractive without makeup, without ripping out their body hair, without wearing hobbling shoes that "makes their ass stick out"-

and that men have the fundamental right to not have their worth as a person determined by successful competition with other men, with how much money they make, and how many women they can "get".


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ryan93
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05 Apr 2011, 6:53 pm

Bethie wrote:
If men and women were really so fundamentally different as human beings,
the latter wouldn't have fought tooth and nail for
voting rights
property rights
reproductive freedom
access to education
career opportunities

It is in that same spirit comes the idea that women have the fundamental right to be considered attractive without makeup, without ripping out their body hair, without wearing hobbling shoes that "makes their ass stick out"-

and that men have the fundamental right to not have their worth as a person determined by successful competition with other men, with how much money they make, and how many women they can "get".


Seems fair to me. I guess the "makeup" problem is the same as that of everyone standing up at a concert; no-one sees anything extra. If every woman stopped wearing makeup, people would find them equally as attractive as if every woman decided to wear it. I think one of the biggest tragedies in society is that there is so few individuals; most people seem to be a obviously taped together collection of memes. When I see a woman who doesn't wear makeup, I assume she is someone who questions cultural values, and defines her own values; in short, I see someone worth talking to.


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Bethie
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05 Apr 2011, 6:59 pm

ryan93 wrote:
Bethie wrote:
If men and women were really so fundamentally different as human beings,
the latter wouldn't have fought tooth and nail for
voting rights
property rights
reproductive freedom
access to education
career opportunities

It is in that same spirit comes the idea that women have the fundamental right to be considered attractive without makeup, without ripping out their body hair, without wearing hobbling shoes that "makes their ass stick out"-

and that men have the fundamental right to not have their worth as a person determined by successful competition with other men, with how much money they make, and how many women they can "get".


Seems fair to me. I guess the "makeup" problem is the same as that of everyone standing up at a concert; no-one sees anything extra. If every woman stopped wearing makeup, people would find them equally as attractive as if every woman decided to wear it. I think one of the biggest tragedies in society is that there is so few individuals; most people seem to be a obviously taped together collection of memes. When I see a woman who doesn't wear makeup, I assume she is someone who questions cultural values, and defines her own values; in short, I see someone worth talking to.


Agreed. I haven't worn makeup in years.


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ryan93
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05 Apr 2011, 7:01 pm

Bethie wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Bethie wrote:
If men and women were really so fundamentally different as human beings,
the latter wouldn't have fought tooth and nail for
voting rights
property rights
reproductive freedom
access to education
career opportunities

It is in that same spirit comes the idea that women have the fundamental right to be considered attractive without makeup, without ripping out their body hair, without wearing hobbling shoes that "makes their ass stick out"-

and that men have the fundamental right to not have their worth as a person determined by successful competition with other men, with how much money they make, and how many women they can "get".


Seems fair to me. I guess the "makeup" problem is the same as that of everyone standing up at a concert; no-one sees anything extra. If every woman stopped wearing makeup, people would find them equally as attractive as if every woman decided to wear it. I think one of the biggest tragedies in society is that there is so few individuals; most people seem to be a obviously taped together collection of memes. When I see a woman who doesn't wear makeup, I assume she is someone who questions cultural values, and defines her own values; in short, I see someone worth talking to.


Agreed. I haven't worn makeup in years.


Do you get much abuse about it?


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TeaEarlGreyHot
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05 Apr 2011, 7:07 pm

Bethie wrote:
I haven't worn makeup in years.


Neither have I.


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Bethie
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05 Apr 2011, 7:11 pm

ryan93 wrote:

Do you get much abuse about it?


No one ever sees me.


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ryan93
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05 Apr 2011, 7:13 pm

Bethie wrote:
ryan93 wrote:

Do you get much abuse about it?


No one ever sees me.


Do you not go out much?


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Bethie
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05 Apr 2011, 7:19 pm

ryan93 wrote:
Bethie wrote:
ryan93 wrote:

Do you get much abuse about it?


No one ever sees me.


Do you not go out much?


I live alone, and I don't have work, or school, or friends. I see doctors occasionally, I guess.


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ryan93
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05 Apr 2011, 7:28 pm

Bethie wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Bethie wrote:
ryan93 wrote:

Do you get much abuse about it?


No one ever sees me.


Do you not go out much?


I live alone, and I don't have work, or school, or friends. I see doctors occasionally, I guess.


Oh okay. If I didn't have to go through all the usual motions, I'd be doing the same thing, I'm sick of the repeditiveness of obligatory living :?


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ikorack
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05 Apr 2011, 7:29 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
ikorack wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
*facepalm* You're still missing my point.


Explain it again?


Okay. One more time because life is calling. lol

Social views on things like make-up and shaved legs should be changed, not laws. Sure, everyone is free to be attracted to whatever the want, but people need to realize it's not okay to turn away a female job applicant because she doesn't wear make-up.


Yes, I didn't disagree with this, I just don't think such biases should be labeled as rules because they have no legal backing or protection. Which is to say I do not think that someone should be legally punished for turning away someone from a job because of a lack of makeup regardless of me thinking something like that is stupid.

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Feminism these days is about bringing on these kinds of social changes. We've already got most of the laws we need in place to protect us, we just need society itself to embrace all of us... not just the June Cleavers and Paris Hiltons.


I am not going to get into another discussion about what feminism should be and what it is.

@Bethie No one has any fundamental right to be considered attractive nor does anyone have any right to be judged on the basis they desire, something like that doesn't even make sense.



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05 Apr 2011, 7:30 pm

ryan93 wrote:

Oh okay. If I didn't have to go through all the usual motions, I'd be doing the same thing, I'm sick of the repeditiveness of obligatory living :?


Nah, I'd do it regardless. I'm starting school this fall and don't plan on having any qualms about showing my legs. :D


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MarketAndChurch
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05 Apr 2011, 7:56 pm

ryan93 wrote:
When I see a woman who doesn't wear makeup, I assume she is someone who questions cultural values, and defines her own values; in short, I see someone worth talking to.


I hold the same true about those who tan regularly, and am delighted when i meet someone who isn't;
which isn't that hard to come by in Portland and San Francisco but may be a challenge in some other places.


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Vigilans
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05 Apr 2011, 8:00 pm

ryan93 wrote:
When I see a woman who doesn't wear makeup, I assume she is someone who questions cultural values, and defines her own values; in short, I see someone worth talking to.

Likewise. In fact, my girlfriend never wears any makeup, and is definitely a very independent minded woman. I think she's sexy as hell. :D


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05 Apr 2011, 8:04 pm

Let it be known that I* have nothing against women in general, except highly promiscuous ones. <.< I don't mind leg flashing or heck, even boob flashing. o.O I would, on the other hand, like that most of western society did not use females as objects in order to advertize products or services (and i do mean "with the INTENTION of doing so"). =/

(currently drinking one beer)*

edited : *



MarketAndChurch
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05 Apr 2011, 8:11 pm

Bethie wrote:
If men and women were really so fundamentally different as human beings,
the latter wouldn't have fought tooth and nail for
voting rights
property rights
reproductive freedom
access to education
career opportunities

It is in that same spirit comes the idea that women have the fundamental right to be considered attractive without makeup, without ripping out their body hair, without wearing hobbling shoes that "makes their ass stick out"-

and that men have the fundamental right to not have their worth as a person determined by successful competition with other men, with how much money they make, and how many women they can "get".


Those human institutions (Education, property rights, voting in elections) is how us humans have decided to assemble ourselves and "live" But it should be noted that the physically more "powerful" sex becomes the "right-giver" and the same is usually true in the animal kingdom, and power almost always corrupts, or rules in favor of the stronger one. God doesn't grant you a right for everything you think is important. We made those corrupt human institutions so it is up to us to fix it, not God.

Women dont have a right to be considered attractive because of the reasons you stated. That is a cultural thing. There is the standards and preferences that women put on themselves and each other... the standards and preferences that man put on women, and the standards and preferences that both agree to (society or the community) that women should abide by. Again... rights are subjective if it is not God giving it because then its just your opinion versus someone else's. If a super large segment of society or all of society says something is a right, then it is, since they are the larger body, and the ones who can "protect" that right against those who don't respect it. So who is the right-giver stating those things so?


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