Does the government own your vagina?
Ever been to an ultrasound? Ever changed a diaper? Any intimate knowledge of parenthood whatsoever?
Just curious.
Furthermore, what do diapers have to do with the morality of abortion?
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Still looking for that blue jean baby queen, prettiest girl I've ever seen.
That making abortion illegal and jailing abortion doctors is suddenly not as effective to prevent killing of "babies" as back when you said 'Exactly'.
The straw man worked.
(Edit: Except it wasn't that much of a straw man considering how it was inspired by a real life case of Republicanitis)
My only opinion on the subject of 'decision' is that if the man does not want a child and the mother does, then the man should have no financial responsibility regarding the child. Because responsibility is linked with decision power and no decision power should mean no responsibility. This should be done by a contract signed before birth.
If the parent wants a child and the mother does not, well, if they are married that's probably a good justification for a divorce or cancellation of a civil union. Otherwise, if the guy has no contract with the mother then he should just stfu, really. You shouldn't force things up and a life is the worst thing to force. If you want a son, get a woman that wants him as well, and like actually ask her about that decision before engaging into unprotected sex.
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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 10 Apr 2011, 11:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I know it's not your video(if it is, nice soul patch) but I certainly am not against sex education or the availability of contraceptives. I'm not advocating laws in any other country but my own. I find the correlation between the reduction in crime and Roe V. Wade dubious at best. The fact that some women would do it anyway doesn't really hold much water with me. People will still do anything that's illegal, that's why they're illegal.
Question to think about, would you rather abortion stay legal or for the war on drugs to end? (not that they're in any way related, I just want to see what issues people prioritize)
That making abortion illegal and jailing abortion doctors is suddenly not as effective to prevent killing of "babies" as back when you said 'Exactly'.
The straw man worked.
That's the exact problem with turning arbitrary morality into laws. Make abortion illegal. Make drugs illegal. Make junk food illegal. You are just going to handle a monopoly to criminals. And the criminals will use the money they earn from this monopoly to invest in other things and expand their markets. That means more murder and slavery.
That may be because many pro-lifers simply do not care as much about the "life" of a human once that human has been born.
Last edited by AceOfSpades on 10 Apr 2011, 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Legally, you can't give their opinion "some" importance. Since you can't have 50% of a baby, then you would have to give fathers either 0% or 100% of the decision power. If we are going to handle 100% of the power to someone, it makes more sense to handle it to the woman, since it is her body and all.
When I speak about my opinion of what should legally happen to fathers, It does not mean I am against mom asking dad what he thinks about it and dad trying to convince mom about what to do. However, legally there should be no power for the dad about this. Unless I guess maybe mom is in vegetative state and dad received a power transfer or some other far-fetched case.
Otherwise, in real non-legal life. I bet that most of the time fathers are given some consideration by the mother because people are empathic and all. But when talking legal matters then I have to assume that considerations were given and there was an ultimate disagreement between the parts. In that case, the law has to speak and delimit power and responsibility.
There is no 100% consistent point of view, get over it. Ok, there is a way to be 100% consistent but you end up doing very stupid things. The Nazis were consistent about their views, and see what happened. The world is not black and white. And yes that's a Godwin, but it works so beautifully there, if I had a BW world view, I would never get to use a Godwin even when it makes sense to .
Left wingers that are anti death punishment and not anti-abortion merely disagree with you about what is a human or not. That you think a fetus is human does not make the left wingers hypocrites, it means you two disagree about things.
I'm just wondering if any men posting here have ever cared for a baby. Since men will never be pregnant or give birth, I'm just wondering if anyone posting here has any experience with parenthood that isn't purely academic.
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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 10 Apr 2011, 11:26 pm, edited 4 times in total.
this thread is moving too fast
my beliefs on abortion are pretty simple. I believe that an unborn child is a human life that has a right to live that trumps a woman's right to privacy. If you don't believe than an unborn child is a human life then the mother's right to privacy should be you're priority. Seems pretty black and white to me, I don't think you can have middle ground on this issue.

my beliefs on abortion are pretty simple. I believe that an unborn child is a human life that has a right to live that trumps a woman's right to privacy. If you don't believe than an unborn child is a human life then the mother's right to privacy should be you're priority. Seems pretty black and white to me, I don't think you can have middle ground on this issue.
A scraped piece of skin is "human life". I don't care about what is or isn't considered "human life", I care about personhood. And fetuses are not people.
Unfortunately, this is an issue where the "rights" of the father cannot possibly be upheld without superceding the rights of the mother, and it seems obvious that since the woman bears the risk and cost of childbirth, her rights trump the man's in this case. Legally speaking, the man can have no say in whether or not a woman carries his progeny to term. He can try to persuade her to keep the baby, but when we sit down to write the laws, the final decision must be the woman's and no one else's.
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WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
For what it's worth, I have two children, went to most of the ultrasound appointments for them including some before the point most women even know they are pregnant, and changed the very first diaper on the first child while mommy was resting.
Why do you ask?
When I speak about my opinion of what should legally happen to fathers, It does not mean I am against mom asking dad what he thinks about it and dad trying to convince mom about what to do. However, legally there should be no power for the dad about this. Unless I guess maybe mom is in vegetative state and dad received a power transfer or some other far-fetched case.
Otherwise, in real non-legal life. I bet that most of the time fathers are given some consideration by the mother because people are empathic and all. But when talking legal matters then I have to assume that considerations were given and there was an ultimate disagreement between the parts. In that case, the law has to speak and delimit power and responsibility.
There is no 100% consistent point of view, get over it. Ok, there is a way to be 100% consistent but you end up doing very stupid things. The Nazis were consistent about their views, and see what happened. The world is not black and white. And yes that's a Godwin, but it works so beautifully there, if I had a BW world view, I would never get to use a Godwin even when it makes sense to .
Left wingers that are anti death punishment and not anti-abortion merely disagree with you about what is a human or not. That you think a fetus is human does not make the left wingers hypocrites, it means you two disagree about things.
And likewise thinking a crook should be held responsible for its actions as well as the parents for their baby doesn't make a right winger a hypocrite either. I'm pro-life and against the death penalty btw.
The state is also given the power to kill if a crook opens fire on a cop. Also, the two most basic roles of the government any right winger will tell you is: Protection from domestic crime and national security (Yes I find the small government rhetoric ridiculous when it comes to keeping gay marriage illegal and wanting to impose public prayer but tell that to social conservatives). The death penalty would fall under protection from domestic crime and would arguably save taxpayer money (I'm unsure of which way is cheaper myself but I know for a fact they are both expensive).
Last edited by AceOfSpades on 10 Apr 2011, 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

my beliefs on abortion are pretty simple. I believe that an unborn child is a human life that has a right to live that trumps a woman's right to privacy. If you don't believe than an unborn child is a human life then the mother's right to privacy should be you're priority. Seems pretty black and white to me, I don't think you can have middle ground on this issue.
A scraped piece of skin is "human life". I don't care about what is or isn't considered "human life", I care about personhood. And fetuses are not people.
well that is your opinion, most people feel differently
you don't feel differently if the mom want's the baby right? Still a "piece of skin" right?
If you do, at least your consistent. A lot of folks I've talked to about abortion also believe it's a human life but rationalize it's murder by saying they'd do it anyways or that we're better off. Usually the whole not wanting the government interfere in their lives doesn't really play a big role in their arguments. While I could sympathize with that viewpoint, they'd probably have no issue with the government interfering in their lives in just about every other way including paying for the dang abortion.
ZeroGravitas
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Joined: 22 Mar 2011
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I changed the diapers of my friend's baby before he did.
One day the week the twins were bought home from the hospital, he was holding one when it peed on him. He handed me the baby while screaming like a little girl, and ran out of the room while simultaneously taking his pants off.
His wife popped in "Oh my god, what happened? It sounded like you dropped the baby! Wait, where did he go?"
And found me mid-way through puzzling how to change a diaper.
There is a moral here somewhere, but I cannot find it.
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This sentance contains three erors.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt156929.html - How to annoy me
I never said that I think a woman should be "forced" to carry a baby, that abortion should be illegal, or that anyone should make that decision for someone else.
And.. not all pregnancies result from "unprotected" sex... oopsies happen.
All I was saying was that if a man wants to keep and raise the child and absolve the mother of responsibilities after birth, then it would be nice if she considered it. People surrogate all the time, that's what this would equate to. (Therefore it would make sense that he paid the medical bills.) If a woman wants to keep the child, and the man doesn't, she should absolve him of responsibilities.
I understand that you were talking about law.. and perhaps based on that, maybe I shouldn't have voiced my thoughts.. but sometimes hearing "her body, her choice" kinda gets on my nerves because WHILE IT'S TRUE (don't get me wrong, it is true).. it sounds so..... Cartman.. "screw you guys, I'm goin' home!"
I try really hard to look at these things from both sides. In the last 5 months of my pregnancy, I asked every male I knew how they felt about circumcision and if they felt it should have been their choice. I didn't feel comfortable making that choice for my son without some input. That might seem irrelevant to this conversation, but I'm just trying to say that I really do try to look at every angle.
That's all.