Does the government own your vagina?

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Furthermore, what do diapers have to do with the morality of abortion?

That making abortion illegal and jailing abortion doctors is suddenly not as effective to prevent killing of "babies" as back when you said 'Exactly'.

The straw man worked.
(Edit: Except it wasn't that much of a straw man considering how it was inspired by a real life case of Republicanitis)


It really is her body. I know, "DNA". But I don't really see anything magical about DNA. I think that if the would-be father didn't want to go through all this "no respect my opinion" deal he should have used protection or have unprotected sex with a mate that actually wants the fetus to become a human being.

My only opinion on the subject of 'decision' is that if the man does not want a child and the mother does, then the man should have no financial responsibility regarding the child. Because responsibility is linked with decision power and no decision power should mean no responsibility. This should be done by a contract signed before birth.

If the parent wants a child and the mother does not, well, if they are married that's probably a good justification for a divorce or cancellation of a civil union. Otherwise, if the guy has no contract with the mother then he should just stfu, really. You shouldn't force things up and a life is the worst thing to force. If you want a son, get a woman that wants him as well, and like actually ask her about that decision before engaging into unprotected sex.

Last edited by Vexcalibur on 10 Apr 2011, 11:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I know it's not your video(if it is, nice soul patch) but I certainly am not against sex education or the availability of contraceptives. I'm not advocating laws in any other country but my own. I find the correlation between the reduction in crime and Roe V. Wade dubious at best. The fact that some women would do it anyway doesn't really hold much water with me. People will still do anything that's illegal, that's why they're illegal.

Question to think about, would you rather abortion stay legal or for the war on drugs to end? (not that they're in any way related, I just want to see what issues people prioritize)

Vexcalibur - I didn't say men don't change diapers.

I'm just wondering if any men posting here have ever cared for a baby. Since men will never be pregnant or give birth, I'm just wondering if anyone posting here has any experience with parenthood that isn't purely academic.

Babies in the dumpster are much easier to enforce than the attempted murder of a baby, but it's only fitting to have an attempted murder law if there is a murder law. Your straw man didn't "work" and I made no claim that it is easy to enforce attempted murder of a fetus so you just threw another straw man. And how is preemptively jailing potential suspects even relevant to whether or not attempting to cause a miscarriage counts as attempted murder?

...And left wingers think the abortion of a baby that committed no crime is okay yet sentencing a child murderer or rapist to death for what that person did isn't. What insinuations are you making here?

Last edited by AceOfSpades on 10 Apr 2011, 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Vexcalibur.. I never said force.. I said consideration..

I agree that you can't hijack a woman's uterus for 9 months..

I never claimed to have a solution for my views...

Legally, you can't give their opinion "some" importance. Since you can't have 50% of a baby, then you would have to give fathers either 0% or 100% of the decision power. If we are going to handle 100% of the power to someone, it makes more sense to handle it to the woman, since it is her body and all.

When I speak about my opinion of what should legally happen to fathers, It does not mean I am against mom asking dad what he thinks about it and dad trying to convince mom about what to do. However, legally there should be no power for the dad about this. Unless I guess maybe mom is in vegetative state and dad received a power transfer or some other far-fetched case.

Otherwise, in real non-legal life. I bet that most of the time fathers are given some consideration by the mother because people are empathic and all. But when talking legal matters then I have to assume that considerations were given and there was an ultimate disagreement between the parts. In that case, the law has to speak and delimit power and responsibility.

And right wingers would rather not have the state regulating their economic lives, but they will gladly give the state the power to kill .

There is no 100% consistent point of view, get over it. Ok, there is a way to be 100% consistent but you end up doing very stupid things. The Nazis were consistent about their views, and see what happened. The world is not black and white. And yes that's a Godwin, but it works so beautifully there, if I had a BW world view, I would never get to use a Godwin even when it makes sense to .

Left wingers that are anti death punishment and not anti-abortion merely disagree with you about what is a human or not. That you think a fetus is human does not make the left wingers hypocrites, it means you two disagree about things.

I recognize a couple of members in this discussion that in the past talked about their experience as parents.

Last edited by Vexcalibur on 10 Apr 2011, 11:26 pm, edited 4 times in total.

this thread is moving too fast

my beliefs on abortion are pretty simple. I believe that an unborn child is a human life that has a right to live that trumps a woman's right to privacy. If you don't believe than an unborn child is a human life then the mother's right to privacy should be you're priority. Seems pretty black and white to me, I don't think you can have middle ground on this issue.

A scraped piece of skin is "human life". I don't care about what is or isn't considered "human life", I care about personhood. And fetuses are not people.

Unfortunately, this is an issue where the "rights" of the father cannot possibly be upheld without superceding the rights of the mother, and it seems obvious that since the woman bears the risk and cost of childbirth, her rights trump the man's in this case. Legally speaking, the man can have no say in whether or not a woman carries his progeny to term. He can try to persuade her to keep the baby, but when we sit down to write the laws, the final decision must be the woman's and no one else's.

For what it's worth, I have two children, went to most of the ultrasound appointments for them including some before the point most women even know they are pregnant, and changed the very first diaper on the first child while mommy was resting.

Why do you ask?

Yeah makes more sense to leave it to the woman if abortion is legal.

Likewise a pro-lifer would find it absurd to be told that what goes on in an abortion clinic is none of his/her own business. You haven't called skafather out on this, yet you tell me now that both positions are merely different views. He repeats it ad nauseam as if he's trying to force his assumptions on us. I know they are two differing viewpoints, and that's why I don't like when people call abortion "murder" and I say "according to a pro-lifer stance" whenever I'm saying something under my own assumptions. I don't insist that a fetus/embryo is a life, I say it is a life according to a pro-life stance.

And likewise thinking a crook should be held responsible for its actions as well as the parents for their baby doesn't make a right winger a hypocrite either. I'm pro-life and against the death penalty btw.

The state is also given the power to kill if a crook opens fire on a cop. Also, the two most basic roles of the government any right winger will tell you is: Protection from domestic crime and national security (Yes I find the small government rhetoric ridiculous when it comes to keeping gay marriage illegal and wanting to impose public prayer but tell that to social conservatives). The death penalty would fall under protection from domestic crime and would arguably save taxpayer money (I'm unsure of which way is cheaper myself but I know for a fact they are both expensive).

Last edited by AceOfSpades on 10 Apr 2011, 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

well that is your opinion, most people feel differently

you don't feel differently if the mom want's the baby right? Still a "piece of skin" right?

If you do, at least your consistent. A lot of folks I've talked to about abortion also believe it's a human life but rationalize it's murder by saying they'd do it anyways or that we're better off. Usually the whole not wanting the government interfere in their lives doesn't really play a big role in their arguments. While I could sympathize with that viewpoint, they'd probably have no issue with the government interfering in their lives in just about every other way including paying for the dang abortion.

I changed the diapers of my friend's baby before he did.

One day the week the twins were bought home from the hospital, he was holding one when it peed on him. He handed me the baby while screaming like a little girl, and ran out of the room while simultaneously taking his pants off.

His wife popped in "Oh my god, what happened? It sounded like you dropped the baby! Wait, where did he go?"

And found me mid-way through puzzling how to change a diaper.

There is a moral here somewhere, but I cannot find it.

Who changes the diapers has no bearing on whether men can have an opinion on abortion.

I never said that I think a woman should be "forced" to carry a baby, that abortion should be illegal, or that anyone should make that decision for someone else.
And.. not all pregnancies result from "unprotected" sex... oopsies happen.

All I was saying was that if a man wants to keep and raise the child and absolve the mother of responsibilities after birth, then it would be nice if she considered it. People surrogate all the time, that's what this would equate to. (Therefore it would make sense that he paid the medical bills.) If a woman wants to keep the child, and the man doesn't, she should absolve him of responsibilities.

I understand that you were talking about law.. and perhaps based on that, maybe I shouldn't have voiced my thoughts.. but sometimes hearing "her body, her choice" kinda gets on my nerves because WHILE IT'S TRUE (don't get me wrong, it is true).. it sounds so..... Cartman.. "screw you guys, I'm goin' home!"

I try really hard to look at these things from both sides. In the last 5 months of my pregnancy, I asked every male I knew how they felt about circumcision and if they felt it should have been their choice. I didn't feel comfortable making that choice for my son without some input. That might seem irrelevant to this conversation, but I'm just trying to say that I really do try to look at every angle.

That's all.