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What does the U.S Get from its support of Israel?

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Sand
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25 May 2011, 7:09 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Sand wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
In general there is no doubt the Israelis are an exceedingly talented and industrious bunch and there is no doubting their huge capabilities, They have also placed themselves in a geographical and social context with no regard to the huge hatreds for their aggressive policies. There is an underlying paranoid hysteria which is driving much of their politics and prevents them from coming to terms with the reality of their situation which would be much alleviated by accepting some sort of humanitarian decency towards the original inhabitants of the area they have persecuted to flee. But their attitude seems irretrievably fixed and, in the long run, likely to end in huge violence that may well destroy everyone concerned. Their stock of atomic weapons makes them far too dangerous to tolerate in the long run and advocates within Israel who are prepared to create huge destruction in the final event that Israel may not be sustainable may make the Holocaust look like a picnic. It's a frightful situation, not sustainable in the long run, and the Israelis do not seem particularly sane.


Easy to say, but the neighbors want to kill the Israelis. That makes being humane and decent a tad difficult.

ruveyn


Whatever justice may be involved on either side the inevitable outcome looks to be frightful and there seems little effort by the participants to avoid that final horrible end.


No, I will point out only one side wants peace, the Israelis. The Palestinians seem to want to murder every Jew down to the last baby. You don't negotiate with someone that wants to exterminate you.


Another example of the rampant paranoia that poisons the possibilities. A glance at Gaza clearly indicates who is the aggressor and who is the victim. Victims do not peacefully lay down and die when they are so brutally suppressed.


So in your mind I guess it is okay for people to murder Jews...

Israel is blockading the Gaza Strip to keep Hamas from getting more rockets to shoot into Israel.


Merely take a body count of the people on both sides as to how may Israelis have been killed by the Palestinian primitive rockets and how many Palestinians have been butchered by the overwhelming response of the very efficient and powerful Israeli IDF and you might be able to topple your concept of where the persecution may lie.



Inuyasha
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25 May 2011, 7:13 pm

Sand wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Sand wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
In general there is no doubt the Israelis are an exceedingly talented and industrious bunch and there is no doubting their huge capabilities, They have also placed themselves in a geographical and social context with no regard to the huge hatreds for their aggressive policies. There is an underlying paranoid hysteria which is driving much of their politics and prevents them from coming to terms with the reality of their situation which would be much alleviated by accepting some sort of humanitarian decency towards the original inhabitants of the area they have persecuted to flee. But their attitude seems irretrievably fixed and, in the long run, likely to end in huge violence that may well destroy everyone concerned. Their stock of atomic weapons makes them far too dangerous to tolerate in the long run and advocates within Israel who are prepared to create huge destruction in the final event that Israel may not be sustainable may make the Holocaust look like a picnic. It's a frightful situation, not sustainable in the long run, and the Israelis do not seem particularly sane.


Easy to say, but the neighbors want to kill the Israelis. That makes being humane and decent a tad difficult.

ruveyn


Whatever justice may be involved on either side the inevitable outcome looks to be frightful and there seems little effort by the participants to avoid that final horrible end.


No, I will point out only one side wants peace, the Israelis. The Palestinians seem to want to murder every Jew down to the last baby. You don't negotiate with someone that wants to exterminate you.


Another example of the rampant paranoia that poisons the possibilities. A glance at Gaza clearly indicates who is the aggressor and who is the victim. Victims do not peacefully lay down and die when they are so brutally suppressed.


So in your mind I guess it is okay for people to murder Jews...

Israel is blockading the Gaza Strip to keep Hamas from getting more rockets to shoot into Israel.


Merely take a body count of the people on both sides as to how may Israelis have been killed by the Palestinian primitive rockets and how many Palestinians have been butchered by the overwhelming response of the very efficient and powerful Israeli IDF and you might be able to topple your concept of where the persecution may lie.


That is if you leave out the fact that Hamas likes to fire their rockets from schools, hospitals, and anywhere else there are children present. So again, you're leaving out facts to blame Israelis for the fact Hamas likes to use Palestinian children as human shields.



simon_says
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25 May 2011, 7:17 pm

They are our old cold war allies. Back when a Soviet invasion of the oil fields was possible. The middle-east is full of vestigial client states left over from the cold war.



Sand
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25 May 2011, 7:21 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Sand wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Sand wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
In general there is no doubt the Israelis are an exceedingly talented and industrious bunch and there is no doubting their huge capabilities, They have also placed themselves in a geographical and social context with no regard to the huge hatreds for their aggressive policies. There is an underlying paranoid hysteria which is driving much of their politics and prevents them from coming to terms with the reality of their situation which would be much alleviated by accepting some sort of humanitarian decency towards the original inhabitants of the area they have persecuted to flee. But their attitude seems irretrievably fixed and, in the long run, likely to end in huge violence that may well destroy everyone concerned. Their stock of atomic weapons makes them far too dangerous to tolerate in the long run and advocates within Israel who are prepared to create huge destruction in the final event that Israel may not be sustainable may make the Holocaust look like a picnic. It's a frightful situation, not sustainable in the long run, and the Israelis do not seem particularly sane.


Easy to say, but the neighbors want to kill the Israelis. That makes being humane and decent a tad difficult.

ruveyn


Whatever justice may be involved on either side the inevitable outcome looks to be frightful and there seems little effort by the participants to avoid that final horrible end.


No, I will point out only one side wants peace, the Israelis. The Palestinians seem to want to murder every Jew down to the last baby. You don't negotiate with someone that wants to exterminate you.


Another example of the rampant paranoia that poisons the possibilities. A glance at Gaza clearly indicates who is the aggressor and who is the victim. Victims do not peacefully lay down and die when they are so brutally suppressed.


So in your mind I guess it is okay for people to murder Jews...

Israel is blockading the Gaza Strip to keep Hamas from getting more rockets to shoot into Israel.


Merely take a body count of the people on both sides as to how may Israelis have been killed by the Palestinian primitive rockets and how many Palestinians have been butchered by the overwhelming response of the very efficient and powerful Israeli IDF and you might be able to topple your concept of where the persecution may lie.


That is if you leave out the fact that Hamas likes to fire their rockets from schools, hospitals, and anywhere else there are children present. So again, you're leaving out facts to blame Israelis for the fact Hamas likes to use Palestinian children as human shields.


Of course, then, by your logic, the Palestinians should construct easily identified military installations for rocket launching to spare their population. Pardon me,but I am beginning to suspect your intellect.



Inuyasha
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25 May 2011, 7:23 pm

simon_says wrote:
They are our old cold war allies. Back when a Soviet invasion of the oil fields was possible. The middle-east is full of vestigial client states left over from the cold war.


That and there is the fact they've come to our aid numerous times behind the scenes. They also got us plenty of Soviet made equipment for our people to take apart (such as in the 6 day war hauling off a portable radar site).



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25 May 2011, 7:32 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
simon_says wrote:
They are our old cold war allies. Back when a Soviet invasion of the oil fields was possible. The middle-east is full of vestigial client states left over from the cold war.


That and there is the fact they've come to our aid numerous times behind the scenes. They also got us plenty of Soviet made equipment for our people to take apart (such as in the 6 day war hauling off a portable radar site).


And of course, one must admire the way they attacked the USS Liberty when even one of their airmen in the effort clearly identified it as a US ship and refused to participate in the attack and was subsequently rewarded by Israeli persecution.

See http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL ... berty.html



ruveyn
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25 May 2011, 7:53 pm

Sand wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
simon_says wrote:
They are our old cold war allies. Back when a Soviet invasion of the oil fields was possible. The middle-east is full of vestigial client states left over from the cold war.


That and there is the fact they've come to our aid numerous times behind the scenes. They also got us plenty of Soviet made equipment for our people to take apart (such as in the 6 day war hauling off a portable radar site).


And of course, one must admire the way they attacked the USS Liberty when even one of their airmen in the effort clearly identified it as a US ship and refused to participate in the attack and was subsequently rewarded by Israeli persecution.

See http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL ... berty.html


It was a one off back in 1967. The Liberty was in the middle of war zone. Bad things happen in the heat of battle. It would have been nice if the U.S. Navy informed the IDF they were there. That way the flag it was flying would not have been taken as a false flag.

ruveyn



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25 May 2011, 8:19 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
simon_says wrote:
They are our old cold war allies. Back when a Soviet invasion of the oil fields was possible. The middle-east is full of vestigial client states left over from the cold war.


That and there is the fact they've come to our aid numerous times behind the scenes. They also got us plenty of Soviet made equipment for our people to take apart (such as in the 6 day war hauling off a portable radar site).


And of course, one must admire the way they attacked the USS Liberty when even one of their airmen in the effort clearly identified it as a US ship and refused to participate in the attack and was subsequently rewarded by Israeli persecution.

See http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL ... berty.html


It was a one off back in 1967. The Liberty was in the middle of war zone. Bad things happen in the heat of battle. It would have been nice if the U.S. Navy informed the IDF they were there. That way the flag it was flying would not have been taken as a false flag.

ruveyn



This from my indicated source:

Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery. [Washington Report]



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25 May 2011, 8:59 pm

In general the point should be made that nations are not people. They do not make permanent friendships with deep loyalties. They each do what they do for totally selfish purposes. The USA has a long open record of acting in behalf of frightful vicious governments because it was presumed to be in their best interests. When those interests decline the good relationships decline. To understand the basis of those relationships one must examine how the participating nations benefit.



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25 May 2011, 9:43 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
In general there is no doubt the Israelis are an exceedingly talented and industrious bunch and there is no doubting their huge capabilities, They have also placed themselves in a geographical and social context with no regard to the huge hatreds for their aggressive policies. There is an underlying paranoid hysteria which is driving much of their politics and prevents them from coming to terms with the reality of their situation which would be much alleviated by accepting some sort of humanitarian decency towards the original inhabitants of the area they have persecuted to flee. But their attitude seems irretrievably fixed and, in the long run, likely to end in huge violence that may well destroy everyone concerned. Their stock of atomic weapons makes them far too dangerous to tolerate in the long run and advocates within Israel who are prepared to create huge destruction in the final event that Israel may not be sustainable may make the Holocaust look like a picnic. It's a frightful situation, not sustainable in the long run, and the Israelis do not seem particularly sane.


Easy to say, but the neighbors want to kill the Israelis. That makes being humane and decent a tad difficult.

ruveyn


Whatever justice may be involved on either side the inevitable outcome looks to be frightful and there seems little effort by the participants to avoid that final horrible end.


No, I will point out only one side wants peace, the Israelis. The Palestinians seem to want to murder every Jew down to the last baby. You don't negotiate with someone that wants to exterminate you.


but whos doing the better job at exterminating!! thats the question.

Since the beginning of the Intifada to April 9th, 2005:

3,225 Palestinians killed by Israelis (3,135 by military in the territories, 54 by military inside Israel, 34 by settlers in the territories)
950 Israelis killed by Palestinians (431 inside Israel, 218 settlers, 218 soldiers on duty)
Source: B'tselem, BBC [1]


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25 May 2011, 9:45 pm

Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
simon_says wrote:
They are our old cold war allies. Back when a Soviet invasion of the oil fields was possible. The middle-east is full of vestigial client states left over from the cold war.


That and there is the fact they've come to our aid numerous times behind the scenes. They also got us plenty of Soviet made equipment for our people to take apart (such as in the 6 day war hauling off a portable radar site).


And of course, one must admire the way they attacked the USS Liberty when even one of their airmen in the effort clearly identified it as a US ship and refused to participate in the attack and was subsequently rewarded by Israeli persecution.

See http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL ... berty.html


It was a one off back in 1967. The Liberty was in the middle of war zone. Bad things happen in the heat of battle. It would have been nice if the U.S. Navy informed the IDF they were there. That way the flag it was flying would not have been taken as a false flag.

ruveyn



This from my indicated source:

Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery. [Washington Report]


But for what end was the Liberty attacked? Was there even a theoretical reason, beside the possibility that the Israelis had thought that the ship was Arab, and that they were flying an American flag for subterfuge?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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25 May 2011, 9:47 pm

http://notesfromamedinah.files.wordpres ... 392&crop=1

this is an older map but you see how the settlements have incroached on palestinian land. And all the roads in between the settlements are off limits to palestinians. The palestinians are forced to use very slow border checkpoints that can sometimes take days and days. Pretty much guaranteeing unemployment amongst them.


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25 May 2011, 10:15 pm

heylelshalem wrote:
http://notesfromamedinah.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/fmep_v18_map_settlements.gif?w=640&h=392&crop=1

this is an older map but you see how the settlements have incroached on palestinian land. And all the roads in between the settlements are off limits to palestinians. The palestinians are forced to use very slow border checkpoints that can sometimes take days and days. Pretty much guaranteeing unemployment amongst them.


to be sure, that would be nothing short of infuriating. I sincerely feel for the Palestinian people, especially since most of them aren't to blame for the rocket attacks launched by Hamas fanatics.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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25 May 2011, 10:34 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
heylelshalem wrote:
http://notesfromamedinah.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/fmep_v18_map_settlements.gif?w=640&h=392&crop=1

this is an older map but you see how the settlements have incroached on palestinian land. And all the roads in between the settlements are off limits to palestinians. The palestinians are forced to use very slow border checkpoints that can sometimes take days and days. Pretty much guaranteeing unemployment amongst them.


to be sure, that would be nothing short of infuriating. I sincerely feel for the Palestinian people, especially since most of them aren't to blame for the rocket attacks launched by Hamas fanatics.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


and do you know what the sick thing is? the only real job that most palestinians can get is to work on the construction sites for new settlements lol. Its a sick sick game and no one seems to care.


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Sand
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25 May 2011, 11:50 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
simon_says wrote:
They are our old cold war allies. Back when a Soviet invasion of the oil fields was possible. The middle-east is full of vestigial client states left over from the cold war.


That and there is the fact they've come to our aid numerous times behind the scenes. They also got us plenty of Soviet made equipment for our people to take apart (such as in the 6 day war hauling off a portable radar site).


And of course, one must admire the way they attacked the USS Liberty when even one of their airmen in the effort clearly identified it as a US ship and refused to participate in the attack and was subsequently rewarded by Israeli persecution.

See http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL ... berty.html


It was a one off back in 1967. The Liberty was in the middle of war zone. Bad things happen in the heat of battle. It would have been nice if the U.S. Navy informed the IDF they were there. That way the flag it was flying would not have been taken as a false flag.

ruveyn



This from my indicated source:

Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery. [Washington Report]


But for what end was the Liberty attacked? Was there even a theoretical reason, beside the possibility that the Israelis had thought that the ship was Arab, and that they were flying an American flag for subterfuge?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I have seen no answer to that and I am much interested. I have not seen any indication that the Israelis apologized or offered compensation for the attack nor a denial that they were aware it was an American ship at the initiation of the attack. Their aggressive response to people confessing the reality of the attack is a signal that something extremely curious is going on.



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26 May 2011, 1:20 am

Sand wrote:

I have seen no answer to that and I am much interested. I have not seen any indication that the Israelis apologized or offered compensation for the attack nor a denial that they were aware it was an American ship at the initiation of the attack. Their aggressive response to people confessing the reality of the attack is a signal that something extremely curious is going on.


So curious, it has never happened again since 1967, the middle of a war.

An ex gratia indemnification was made by Israel to the U.S.

"Indemnities often involve competing considerations for the paying nation. Governments may be slow for legal reasons to admit fault but quick for diplomatic reasons to demonstrate concern. These tensions are frequently resolved by characterization of payments as ex gratia humanitarian gestures and not admissions of liability. So, for example, Israel made an ex gratia payment after its accidental 1967 attack on the USS Liberty. The United States' payment in the Japanese trawler incident was also ex gratia."

Damages done during a war are not generally compensated, but Israel paid some money to the U.S. to keep things "peaceful".

If the U.S. had informed the IDF that a U.S. ship was smack in the middle of a war zone, the entire thing might not have occurred.

ruveyn




ruveyn