ive noticed that a lot of pro-life people are also pro war

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I am NOT - if I may point this out - proposing or critiquing legislation.

If I proposed legislastion perhaps a thousand people out of all humanity would listen to me anp perhaps five would agree with me.

If I started critiquing legislation - even just pointing out stupid inconsistencies in the underlying thought - I would have time for nothing else.

I am JUST asking people to call a spade a spade and not hide behind words ass some accuse Christians of hiding behind their doctrines.

If I am a woman happily pregnant with my much desired [X] - I will let you use your preferred word - and you terminate my pregnancy, you killed my baby.

If I am a woman horrified to find myself pregant with a [X] that has the potential to ruin my life as I see it, and you terminate my pregnancy, you killed my baby but you let me call it exercising my right to choose so I can feel good - though the women I have talked to who went through that in fact did NOT feel good about it because PC weasel words are just that.

If I am the owner or the son of a beloved cat or parent and you run over her or shoot her, ending her life, you have killed my cat or my parent.

If I am the owner or the son of a seriously sick cat or parent, and you terminate that life, you have killed my cat or my parent, but you let me call it euthanizing Mama or putting Tabby to sleep so I can feel good. Funny thing, I have never done that with a human but when I have been through it with a cat I in fact did NOT feel good about it because PC weasel words are just that.

Go ahead. I cannot stop peoplde making laws for their convenien ce and I probably would not if I could.

But at least have the guts to say what you mean.

You want to lynch people of African extraction? Call it killing [X].

You want to remove Jews, Gypsies, Catholics from your country? Say that, forget "ethnic cleansing".

Tell me you are getting my dad out of my hair, not settling him in a Senior Community. If you are going to save me and the state some money by ending his life, say you are killing him, forget "euthanasia"

If you are going to put me in a work camp for my dissident views, do not post Arbeit macht frei over the gate.

Just spit it out and admit that the medicine you believe will help your problems smells bad and tastes worse.

At the very minimum, a 'person' has to have enough of a brain to have a personality. For the first two trimesters, a zef does not have that. The cow you ate yesterday had more of a personality than the zef your friend aborted yesterday, unless she was one of the extremely rare, extremely unlucky people to have carried a pregnancy to the third trimester and had something go horribly wrong.
People with alzheimers, parkinson's, or other forms of dementia often have memory loss or personality changes, but they still have a personality. When someone's brain function has degraded to the point that there is no personality left, a la Teri Schaivo, then yes: it is time to pull the plug.

It doesn't feel good to pull the plug on a pet, much less a relative, and nor does it generally feel good to have an abortion. It can, however, still be a relief and a blessing and the best choice of those available.

Killing in general can feel good though. Why not just kill everyone and everything in general? Aside from consequences of laws, the morality of a murderer and the contrived morality of those that want to pick and choose might as well be equally valid if morality is just a game of picking and choosing anyhow.

Your outright statement of delight in slaughtering people very neatly defines your character. I am sure you are totally uninterested in my opinion of you.

Right. War is hell, but there are times you have to grab something and swing at the guy attacking you. No question.

Just have the guts to say you just killed somebody, even if your government declared it a nonperson or subhuman.

the reason you insist on calling it a killing and not something else is because you want people to be shocked and hurt by it.
nothing good can come of that, ever, only more suffering.

don't you think the woman involved have been hurt enough, i cant imagine the stress of that situation, then imagine having to make a deicsion like that, it cant be easy.
couple that with the emotional pain the above brings and the hormone difference they will be living with for quite some time.

it could just aswell be called termination, a much more neutral word with a equal meaning.

no one is declaring a baby a subhuman, but at some stages in their development a personhood is physically impossible, how we could have made this anymore clear is beyond me.
if you are simply ignoring it, well that speaks more of you than this subject or the argument presented.

oodain:

"the reason you insist on calling it a killing and not something else is because you want people to be shocked and hurt by it. nothing good can come of that, ever, only more suffering. "

Please do not put that on me. Please do not affirm my motives when you have heard no such motive from me. I am NOT a person who parades outside an abortion clinic holding blown up photos of the end product of abortion. I am not - have I not said it? - interested in changing or forming any views but my own. I do not get convinced by toktok. I get convinced if I can find data either on my own or handed me in a balanced way, data from which I can form conclusions. That is how I handle teaching. Give them data. Work with them toward a solution. I will; model my approach which they can try and accept or reject or modify. It is bet when I do ot MYSELF have a solution.

I call it killing because THAT is the normal and appropriate word in English used for the extinction of an animal life by an animal. We sometimes extend killing to plants, as in "weedkiller", or nonliving things, as in "kill the engine". But I kill the man I run over, I kill the rat in the trap, the dog kills the squirrel.

Changing the word to make nice does not change the reality. Call it chevre - it is still cheese madee with goat's milk. Call me a Senior Citizen - I am still this out of touch old guy.

No doubt for some calling it BM or BO makes it smell better. Just as the neatly wrapped package of veal cutlets lets the sensitive NOT visualize calves in the slaughterhouse.

But - to call a spade a spade - the woman I have talked to who have exercised their right to choose have been just as hurt by it as if they could express what it was they chose.

--

If you do not put motives in my mouth I will not throw "you are just saying that because" on you. But of course, I would not do that; not much of an incentive for you.

it has nothing to do with it not being a killing, it has to do with the humanitarian sides of this issue that extend much further than a single not-yet-formed consciousness.
if even the life of a single woman in this situation could be made better simply by using another word, who are you to deny that?
as for looking at data, i presented you some.

im done here

There are those who feel that it is easier to get over a real thing by accepting it for what it is. There is too much fiction in the world.

The problem is that people create their own reality, often based on fiction.

True enough. But behind the painting is plaster, and within that a lattice, and upholding that a timber frame, and the storm is only inches away.

Very few.

And little mice how brain activity in the womb. Are they people?

ruveyn

He was talking about the psychology of some murderers, that they enjoy murdering people, the statement that he feels that way is way out of line.



Last I checked human women do not give birth to rodents, they give birth to human beings. Stop with the false equivalencies.

You were the one who invoked brain activity.. Why isn't it equally wrong to abort mice and monkeys. The little mice and monkey fetuses also have brain activity.

You must learn to live with the -logical- consequences of your premise.

By the way, fetuses are not people so they have no rights that anyone need respect on that basis. But the fetus within the women is her -property- and only she has the right to determine its disposition until after birth. After birth, the State assert control of the woman's issue and guarantees its safety by Law.

A woman -owns- the contents of her uterus and she may empty it whenever she wishes. As long as she does not violate health and hygiene statutea.

Unborn fetuses are NOT people and have no rights as persons.

And please do not lay any or your soul nonsense on me. There is no such thing as a mind, spirit or soul. Those are bogus made up quasi-concepts that have no reality in the physical world, which is the only world

ruveyn

Last I checked, we are not the same species as mice and monkeys.

an unborn baby, whenever you want to define it as a baby (sentinent being) rather than a zygote (group of cells) is parasitic.

if you had a tapeworm i doubt you would use the word "extinction."

a pet peeve of mine - you're debating words rather than concepts. like statistics, you can find words to "correctly" support anything you want. and regardless of which ones you choose, you are no more correct than anyone else here, as like everyone else you're stating opinions.