Religion needs to stay out of sexual ethics

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91
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03 Jul 2011, 7:54 pm

^^^^^

I simply assumed that you were attempting to talk about moral ontology. The terms 'normative' and 'descriptive' when used in that sense are most often used in relation to moral relativism. However, the sense you are using them in presently is an epistemological one. My original point was that one cannot skip past the ontological foundation of moral values. Theistic ethics, being well established in the literature as an ontological and epistemological method of understanding moral values gives it, by default a place at the table of the discussion.

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07 Jul 2011, 10:10 am

Vexcalibur wrote:

http://bible.cc/proverbs/6-26.htm

New International Version (©1984)
for the prostitute reduces you to a loaf of bread, and the adulteress preys upon your very life.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For a prostitute will bring you to poverty, but sleeping with another man's wife will cost you your life.

English Standard Version (©2001)
for the price of a prostitute is only a loaf of bread, but a married woman hunts down a precious life.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For on account of a harlot one is reduced to a loaf of bread, And an adulteress hunts for the precious life.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
A prostitute's price is [only] a loaf of bread, but a married woman hunts for [your] life itself.

King James Bible
For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.

American King James Version
For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.

American Standard Version
For on account of a harlot a man is brought to a piece of bread; And the adulteress hunteth for the precious life.

Bible in Basic English
For a loose woman is looking for a cake of bread, but another man's wife goes after one's very life.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For the price of a harlot is scarce one loaf: but the woman catcheth the precious soul of a man.

Darby Bible Translation
for by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a loaf of bread, and another's wife doth hunt for the precious soul.

English Revised Version
For on account of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress hunteth for the precious life.

Webster's Bible Translation
For by means of a lewd woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.

World English Bible
For a prostitute reduces you to a piece of bread. The adulteress hunts for your precious life.

Young's Literal Translation
For a harlot consumeth unto a cake of bread, And an adulteress the precious soul hunteth.

--
Conclusion: translations can make the bible say whatever the heck you want it to say. Not a good book to base your life upon.

Well, what is the original Hebrew? Different doctrinal stances lead to different conclusions: either that someone who hires a prostitute will magically be turned into a loaf of bread (maybe this verse is the origin of the idea of the Communion?), or that, yeah fine, you can hire a prostitute for a slice of bread. Some versions seem deliberately vague, so that the casual reader will just gloss over the verse, and not bring it to the local brothel and say: "look at this! You are really over-charging me!"

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07 Jul 2011, 11:19 am

91 wrote:

it might be a tool to understand moral values(if read critically), but it is not the source of them.

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blauSamstag
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07 Jul 2011, 1:29 pm

91 wrote:

My original point was that one cannot skip past the ontological foundation of moral values.

Can't or shouldn't? I propose that many do.

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07 Jul 2011, 3:42 pm

A goodly Samaritan provided the original Hebrew

Quote:

Prov 6:26
כִּי בְעַד־אִשָּׁה זֹונָה עַד־כִּכַּר לָחֶם וְאֵשֶׁת אִישׁ נֶפֶשׁ יְקָרָה תָצוּד׃ ף

Next time you can find it for yourself at http://biblos.com/

Google translates the phrase thus:

"That for - a harlot before - a loaf of bread and a wife dear soul hound: Jeff"

I think that the sense is that you can have a harlot for a loaf of bread, but that a dear wife will hound your soul, Jeff.

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07 Jul 2011, 3:45 pm

And THAT, ladies and gentlefolks, is why we repudiate and eschew machine translation.

Worse than computerized spellchecking.

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07 Jul 2011, 5:48 pm

Who follows the Bible most closely, religiously and obsessively? Why, the Orthodox Jews, of course.

Which Levantine city is known as the "Brothel Capital of the World?" Why, Tel Aviv, Israel, of course.

http://www.adishakti.org/_/haredin_(orthodox_Jews)_who_crowd_brothels.htm

Quote:

What particularly offends Ben-Ami is the haredin (orthodox Jews) who crowd the Tel Aviv brothels on Friday mornings and afternoons for a pre-Shabbat tumble.

When you go to the area of the Stock Exchange or the Diamond Exchange, you see a lot of prostitution and a lot of very, very religious men - because these men need sex but the women in their society cannot give it to them when they want it. They also cannot masturbate because they cannot waste their sperm. So they have to do it with a women. These men also do not use condoms, therefore they must pay the pimps more.

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07 Jul 2011, 5:52 pm

Here is something on the topic by "Liberated Christians"

http://www.libchrist.com/bible/immoral.html

Quote:

What is "sexual immorality"

There are definite biblical restrictions on sexual acts which are broader called sexual immorality (Greek "porneia"). These are:

1) Sex during women's menstruation. Lack of hygiene for nomads in the desert (lack of clean water) could lead to dangerous infections -"unclean" in ENGLISH refers to filth/dirt/etc., but in Hebrew, it refers, as validly, to RITUAL impurity it was a "sin" (spiritual impurity) to do such.

2) Adultery which biblically was understood by the Hebrews to mean wrong for a married women to have sex with another man since violated her husbands property rights. A man could marry when he was age 12. It was never understood to be wrong for a married man since his wife had no such rights. The married man could have as many wives (as long as women was at least age 13) and concubines (breeders) as he wished as long as "other women" were not married (another man's property). Certainly there is nothing wrong with by agreement between man and wife, sharing sexually with others as in polyamory or swinging since no property of cheating issue. Nothing ever was wrong with singles sexuality. "Fornication" is a total mistranslation lie of Greek "porneia"

3)Sexual Idolatry as in using the temple prostitutes for pagan fertility goddess worship. Or, doing the same with the golden calf and having sex to praise it as a god when Moses came down. Porneia as used in I Cor 6-9, falsely translated in some bibles as fornication was actually the practice of the prostitutes in the Temples of Corinth selling their services as a part of pagan fertility goddess worship which was what Paul was warning against. Not even specifically about prostitution but used as a pagan sexual goddess worship.

Corinth was one of the sex capitals of the world. Corinth was even a Metaphor for Fertility. "Corinthian girl" meant prostitute, "to play the Corinthian" meant to visit a prostitution house. (see "Things They Never Told You In Sunday School: A Primer For The Christian Homosexual" by Rev. David Day, pg. 108)

The major deites at the time was Aphrodite, goddess of fertility, and Cybele, the Mother Goddess. The worshippers of Aphrodite worked as prostitutes in the temples.... these temples held over one thousand prostitutes. The purpose of these prostitutes was to earn money for the temple and to worship Aphrodite (they used sex as worship). So over 1,000 prostitutes were cultic, and that's just from the worshippers of Aphrodite

Nothing in the bible ever said there was anything wrong with non-goddess "common" prostitution which was common and often mentioned with nothing negative about it. Tel Aviv Today is the brothel capital of the world since prostitution just isn't a biblical issue for Jews and its legal in Israel as it is in almost all the world outside the U.S.

4) Pederasty - one of the worst of all sexual sins that took various forms: The practice of pederasty falls into three distinct styles. First is the relationship between an older man and a young boy. Second is the practice of slave prostitutes. Third is that of the effeminate "call boy" or male prostitute. Other practices included a heterosexual male degrading another heterosexual male by anal intercourse after capturing them in battle. Another practice was heterosexual's using anal intercourse to drive out other heterosexual strangers they didn't like such as the case of the Sodom story. It had absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality which is simply being as God designed some people to be.

Beyond these 4 there is no biblical basis for any other definition of porneia, or sexual immorality.

Christ taught in the Sermon on the Mount that the only law is the law of love. He demonstrated this by reversing four of the OT laws which conflicted with loving people. Therefore anything that was hurtful, not by mutual consent etc. would be immoral for a Christian, but obviously not loving sexuality regardless of marital status or natural sexual orientation.

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07 Jul 2011, 7:32 pm

I agree.

Philologos
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07 Jul 2011, 9:27 pm

Why are people talking all this sort of junk?

Whatever various religious orgs and others want to say about ethics / morals / primciples / laws, the Christian is directed to this:

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Legal codes tend to be more detailede, but what more is there to ethics?

If Christianity had more input, people would have less complaint about religiuous organizations and their suggestions.

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07 Jul 2011, 9:45 pm

Philologos wrote:

you do realize that you've essentially argued that anything goes between consenting partners, right?

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07 Jul 2011, 10:14 pm

Actually, as usual I have argued nothing.

But for the rest - I not infrequently quote: "Toma lo que quieres, dice Dios, y págalo".

Take what you want, says God, and pay for it.

God gives us free will, to choose what we want.

The world SOMETIMES lets us DO the things we choose to do.

The state will OFTEN make laws to attavh sanctions to some of our choices.

The Christian is told: But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean."
AND
"Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth."
AND - since Jesus trumps Paul anyway -
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
AND
He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

There are certain things I have reason to believe are not okay with God. But as my friends the Desert Fathers keep saying, it is not the role of the Christian to point out sin and condemn sinners and try to legislate the world into perfection.

There are things - including cases where all partners consent - that are evil. Face it - the consent of one who is intimidated or deceived is no consent, and there are many things where we have no idea what are the consequences until it is too late.

Probably some of these things ought to be stopped. But people who take the passages quoted seriously [not literally, guys] are not going to be the ones to stop them.

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08 Jul 2011, 9:12 pm

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/ ... &gt1=42008

It turns out that Bristol Palin was *gasp* DRUNK when she first committed fornication, and she was under 17!

Per the Bible, Mama Grizzly really should have compelled that boy to marry her.

Pity poor Bristol. How is she ever going to find a decent man who will marry her, now?

They both really should have been stoned to death.

Philologos
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08 Jul 2011, 10:19 pm

pandabear wrote:

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/cant-miss-moment-bristol-palin/17wl5ijrs?q=bristol+palin&rel=msn&from=en-us_msnhp&form=MSNRLL&gt1=42008

It turns out that Bristol Palin was *gasp* DRUNK when she first committed fornication, and she was under 17!

Per the Bible, Mama Grizzly really should have compelled that boy to marry her.

Pity poor Bristol. How is she ever going to find a decent man who will marry her, now?

They both really should have been stoned to death.

I THINK - though I am no expert - you were doing a better job faking being a Conservative than your current fake pseudo-literalist Christian. You don't really know enough.

Try this out on your Christian simulation: [I decided to go Douay this time instead of King Jimmy. I am nothing if not eclecgtic]:

AND Jesus went unto mount Olivet. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came to him, and sitting down he taught them. And the scribes and the Pharisees bring unto him a woman taken in adultery: and they set her in the midst, And said to him: Master, this woman was even now taken in adultery. Now Moses in the law commanded us to stone such a one. But what sayest thou? And this they said tempting him, that they might accuse him. But Jesus bowing himself down, wrote with his finger on the ground. When therefore they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said to them: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again stooping down, he wrote on the ground. But they hearing this, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest. And Jesus alone remained, and the woman standing in the midst. Then Jesus lifting up himself, said to her: Woman, where are they that accused thee? Hath no man condemned thee? Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more.

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09 Jul 2011, 12:09 am

Inuyasha wrote:

1. Most religions are against Gay Marriage and Prostitution.

2. Ethics is a matter of religious viewpoints, so actually religion should not stay out of an ethical debate.

And if each religion needs it's own set ethics written into law where no two religions agree there is no point in any debate. As a matter of fact there is nothing to debate. You say homos are evil. I say f**k you.

If you decide that the homos are evil and should be stoned to death there is no kind of logical moral epistemological derivation we can use to settle our differences. We simply disagree. Arguing with religious fascists is futility. In the past if disagreements were strong enough people picked up weapons and slaughtered those with opposing ideologies. It was that simple.

Philologos
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09 Jul 2011, 6:55 am

Well, that is what we are doing these centuries.

Before that in the past [and, I understand, in the recent past and perhaps still among the Amish], if it got to that point onde contingent would leave and start a new community.

Thus one of my forebears, Roger Williams, not comfortable with Massachusetts Bay uniformitarianism, took off and started Rhode Island.

That is hard these days because there is no place to go. A church can split, but those who dislike the current state of affairs in the US are kind of stuck - unless Canada looks good.

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