Are Jews Basically "Fellow Christians?"

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ruveyn
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13 Jul 2011, 4:30 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Well, I guess if you want to get technical about it. :lol:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

What kind of an Aspie would I be if I did not get technical?

ruveyn

pandabear
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13 Jul 2011, 8:07 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1CDdgzObhU[/youtube]

Moshe starts after about 1 minute.

Last edited by pandabear on 13 Jul 2011, 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kraichgauer
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13 Jul 2011, 8:14 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Well, I guess if you want to get technical about it. :lol:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

What kind of an Aspie would I be if I did not get technical?

ruveyn

Granted.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Philologos
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13 Jul 2011, 8:45 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Philologos wrote:

Tread gently, Comrade. In many African cultures cousins refer to one another as brother / sister. If der Kraichgauer is an African of one of those cultures, it is meet and right that he brother you.

Siblings are zeroth cousins. They have all their grandparents in common.

ruveyn

I guess you never did anthro or linguistics. Kinship systems and terminology are cultural phenomena. Western science - including genealogy - have institutionalized and generalized a system extrapolated from Romance systems [probably homogenizing Italic, Celtic, and Germanic setups, much as the AD / BC was institutionalized for chronology [later PC'd to CE / BCE].

But of course that does not affect the Volksmund, for which you must allow. Remember that this is a simple hominid with Subsaharan African and barbaric Transalpine Teutonic ancestry, so you cannot expect too much soiphistication. Let him call you "bro", cher collègue.

mikecartwright
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14 Jul 2011, 12:44 am

Yes

Philologos
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14 Jul 2011, 12:57 am

mikecartwright wrote:

Yes

As in , "Yes to the original question"?

If so, tweejie zone, and honi soit qui mal y pense.

Roman
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14 Jul 2011, 1:20 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

I think the correct Ecumenical strategy is benign neglect.
I would prefer not to have a role in you Apocalypse.

Well, you can't ask people to stop thinking. If people believe a certain thing and they are serious about their belief, it is only natural that they would ask questions and provide speculative answers regarding various topics within their belief system.

Kraichgauer
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14 Jul 2011, 1:47 am

Philologos wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Philologos wrote:

Tread gently, Comrade. In many African cultures cousins refer to one another as brother / sister. If der Kraichgauer is an African of one of those cultures, it is meet and right that he brother you.

Siblings are zeroth cousins. They have all their grandparents in common.

ruveyn

Who are you callin' a simple hominid, buddy?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

MarketAndChurch
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14 Jul 2011, 4:07 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

pandabear wrote:

Inuyasha recently summarized his theological stance thus:

Quote:

I consider Jewish People are basically fellow Christians that God will clear up the misunderstandings on Jesus when they get to heaven. I also believe they get to enter heaven, Christians and Jews believe in the same God.

I don't believe that I've ever come across a doctrine similar to this before. Does it derive from some specific denomination's outlook?

Christians, Jews, and others: how do you regard this doctrine?

It is the same anti-semitic crap that Anne (really a man) Coulter spews.
"Christians are perfected Jews" It is saying that jews are imperfect or deluded potential Xtians.
it is offensive as Hell. But it allows Bigots to be "pro-israel".
While at the same time thinking that 2200 years of rabbis could not understand their own scripture.

it is not of itself something to take offense over. The problem is when such logic devolves into extermination or blatant bigotry, so the thing one should be more concerned with is the ethics and morality of the people who hold such views. In other words - is Ann Coulter, or is Hamas, more likely to wish in spirit that the Jews be sent back to the Ovens? It cheapens the war on bigotry when we apply labels where they do not apply. The threat to Jews doesn't come from the religious evangelical conservatives of America. It comes from fascist islamists and their left-wing empathizers. The love for Israel is a genuine one as those who bless the Jews will be blessed, and those who curse the jews will be cursed.

For the vast majority of Christians who believe that, It is a theological statement that is true from a Christian perspective - It is not a statement on the personhood of a fellow Jew(that they are an incomplete, therefore sub-par or sub-theist or sub-human compared to a christian.

I do agree that (though most Jews could care less) the Rabbi's know their stuff, and it could only help a Christian's christianhood to understand Judaism and the bibles Jewish roots and not de-judify Jesus.

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ruveyn
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14 Jul 2011, 5:08 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:

This is exactly why I object and take offense. This attitude that the Jews are defective and culpable for denying Christ will lead eventually to the ghettos and wearing the yellow star. The Jews have kept the faith. They will not worship false gods. And believing that a carpenter boy from Bethlehem is God incarnate is major league blasphemy. If the Christians wish to delude themselves, then they will as they always have. They are misled and what can one expect? That is no excuse for a Jew swallowing this nonsense and blasphemy.

It is better not to believe in any gods than to believe in a false god.

ruveyn

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14 Jul 2011, 5:28 am

The term "Christian" means "follower of Christ", so a Jew cannot be a Christian.

If Jews are "Christians doing it wrong", then Christians are "Muslims doing it wrong".

I believe all people will go to heaven if they attempt to do good and regret it when they do wrong. One does not have to consciously "serve Christ" or "accept Jesus" in order to serve Christ, and no loving god wold require belief in himself to accept people's actions.

Kraichgauer
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14 Jul 2011, 5:38 am

ruveyn wrote:

MarketAndChurch wrote:

The fact of the matter is though, Jews will never be placed in ghettos or forced to wear yellow stars in America. And that's because most Christians here realize that such behavior is not only reprehensible, but that it also flies in the face of American values of freedom of worship, and the tolerance of difference.
And while I can fully understand that the matter of religion can get peoples panties in a bunch, it should be remembered, attacking someone else' beliefs as "nonsense and blasphemy" is only going to inflame tempers.
By the way, while I am a believing Christian, I can understand how some posts on this thread might have left you a little frayed around the edges. So, I agree people should consider their words before posting - and that includes me, too.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

ruveyn
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14 Jul 2011, 7:38 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

The fact of the matter is though, Jews will never be placed in ghettos or forced to wear yellow stars in America.

Don't be too sure of that. Recall what happened to Americans whose parents happened to be Japanese. They were thrown into prisoner camps, sometimes for years. They were deprived of property earned or obtained legally. The U.S.A. treated Nissei only slightly less badly than the Nazis treated the Jews.

ruveyn

pandabear
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14 Jul 2011, 9:43 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:

The threat to Jews doesn't come from the religious evangelical conservatives of America. It comes from fascist islamists and their left-wing empathizers. The love for Israel is a genuine one as those who bless the Jews will be blessed, and those who curse the jews will be cursed.

For the vast majority of Christians who believe that, It is a theological statement that is true from a Christian perspective - It is not a statement on the personhood of a fellow Jew(that they are an incomplete, therefore sub-par or sub-theist or sub-human compared to a christian.

I do agree that (though most Jews could care less) the Rabbi's know their stuff, and it could only help a Christian's christianhood to understand Judaism and the bibles Jewish roots and not de-judify Jesus.

The attitude of evangelical conservatives for most of the last 2,000 years has been motivated by Matthew 27

Matthew 27 wrote:

When Pilate saw that it was no use to go on, but that a riot might break out, he took some water, washed his hands in front of the crowd, and said, "I am not responsible for the death of this man! This is your doing!"

The whole crowd answered, "Let the responsibility for his death fall on us and on our children! "

Since the creation of modern Israel as a Jewish nation, the outlook of many Christians has shifted to where they feel the need to suck up to the Jews. Some of Israel's neighbors no doubt find this irritating (they have replaced Jews as the ones who are worse than dogs on the Evangelical's list), just as many Jews no doubt find the attitude bemusing, while Israel accepts billions of dollars in offerings from Evangelical Christians.

MarketandChurch wrote:

The love for Israel is a genuine one as those who bless the Jews will be blessed, and those who curse the jews will be cursed.

That isn't "genuine love." You're just blessing Jews for the sake of being blessed yourself. You've transferred your need to find someone to curse over to Israel's neighbors.

Philologos
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14 Jul 2011, 9:58 am

pandabear wrote:

The attitude of evangelical conservatives for most of the last 2,000 years has been motivated by Matthew 27

Pardon my look of extreme incredulity. If you are referring to so-called Evangelical Christians, many of whom in this country are politically conservative, please tell me how many existed in the stretch of the past 2000 years prior to the Reformation, taking that as a generous reference point?

If you are referring to something else - what can it possibly be?

I am increasingly convinced you either do not speak with unforked tongue or you do not really know what you are talking about. In future if I need to know who is what in the political posts here I will ask JakobVirgil whose background and attitude to data better suit my needs.

visagrunt
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14 Jul 2011, 1:12 pm

Philologos wrote:

Well, simple nomenclature tells us that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the authors of the four eponymous gospels, were the first evangelists. Given that Matthew and John were both among the twelve Apostles we have a 1,947 year history (give or take) of Christian evangelism. Possibly more, if Q did, indeed, exist.

Christianity has been involved in evangelism from its beginning, and its vast geographical reach today is due to its evangelical nature.

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