Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

What is so bad about socialism anyways?

Page 6 of 13 [ 196 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 13  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

11 Aug 2011, 2:10 pm

Tequila wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well I can see your point..but why should a minimal amount go to keeping public services in place so that those on the bottom are taken care of?


Because it's the right thing to do? It's morally right to see that those that really can't fend for themselves are taken care of. Everyone else should either work or not get fed, though.

Quote:
As far as having access to medical care, food and shelter.


Yup. A lot of it's the mismanagement and the bureaucracy and the 'target' culture where a lot of it has really gone wrong.

I consider myself broadly classical liberal, so free-market capitalism with light regulation is my bag.

Quote:
Capitalism can to go an extreme to and people can jump on the 'if you're poor or disabled it is somehow totally your fault and you should suffer because you're not making enough profit' mentality.


Again, as I say - the sick, elderly and disabled should be looked after. Everyone else should be working. I want to work at some point in my life - I want to contribute. Unfortunately the system we have in this country discourages people from bettering themselves. It's not a terrible position to be in (other people here, including many on this board, have things far worse than I) but it disincentivises self-growth.


1. Yes people who have the ability to work but refuse out of laziness, should be penalized...however what we have now is people with mental disorders/illnesses and even some with physical disorders or severe permanent injuries being expected to just go out get a job and support themself and are otherwise left to fend for themselves even if it is likely they will die. Like pleanty of people have told me I need to just 'get over' my mental problems and cram a job on top of going to class even though I cannot handle that kind of stress right now.

Also, we have the ridiculous notion that all one has to do to get out of poverty is go get a job and work their way up, my dad worked his ass off and he still could not make enough so when I was a kid we did have to get food stamps, we were on medicaid and people still looked down on us.

2. There are some good things in free market capitalism, but I am not sure light regulations is adequete.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

11 Aug 2011, 2:16 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

1. Yes people who have the ability to work but refuse out of laziness, should be penalized..


Let us assume that a person works, say 20 years and makes enough money that he can be at leisure for the next 40 years, but is perfectly capable of working. Would you penalize him?

ruveyn



Phonic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,329
Location: The graveyard of discarded toy soldiers.

11 Aug 2011, 2:17 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Well walls of text tend to be rather hard to follow.......I know what socialism is, and I was not talking about communism so I am not sure why you are bringing that up.


Walls of text are when you don't paragraph or type to much, I paragraphed like every two lines, and it wasn't exactly long.

I just tihnk it's weird that no one has defined socialism but me, and when I do, you all continue to discuss it as something it isn't.

You clearly don't know socialism is if you insist that scandinavian countries are "socialist" in ways, having good healthcare isn't "socialist", it's called having some humanity.


_________________
'not only has he hacked his intellect away from his feelings, but he has smashed his feelings and his capacity for judgment into smithereens'.


Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

11 Aug 2011, 2:20 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

1. Yes people who have the ability to work but refuse out of laziness, should be penalized..


Let us assume that a person works, say 20 years and makes enough money that he can be at leisure for the next 40 years, but is perfectly capable of working. Would you penalize him?

ruveyn


That is not out of laziness that is out of making enough money and saving enough of it to spend on leisure things. However it is a little upsetting that the majority of citizens cannot expect to retire at a decent age and will be worked as hard as they can be worked well into old age.

I kind of like various european systems that understand the importance of a little lesiure time.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

11 Aug 2011, 2:20 pm

Phonic wrote:

I just tihnk it's weird that no one has defined socialism but me, and when I do, you all continue to discuss it as something it isn't.

.


I defined it correctly. An economic system where the means of production are collectively or socially owned and controlled. Private personal property exists, but production is collectively owned and controlled.

ruveyn



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

11 Aug 2011, 2:22 pm

Phonic wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well walls of text tend to be rather hard to follow.......I know what socialism is, and I was not talking about communism so I am not sure why you are bringing that up.


Walls of text are when you don't paragraph or type to much, I paragraphed like every two lines, and it wasn't exactly long.

I just tihnk it's weird that no one has defined socialism but me, and when I do, you all continue to discuss it as something it isn't.

You clearly don't know socialism is if you insist that scandinavian countries are "socialist" in ways, having good healthcare isn't "socialist", it's called having some humanity.


Ok well in your first post I belive you referred to me as a moron...which was kind of rude to begin with, so to be honest I was not so intrested in what you had to say after that.

But this thread was not about the definition of socialism and how soviet russia abused the idea for instance, it is about some of the aspects of socialism I like.....If you want a thread about how its specifically defined and how it has looked in various nations throughout history start one but don't come in here and yell at me for not defining it the way you wanted me to and not including communism.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

11 Aug 2011, 2:22 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

That is not out of laziness that is out of making enough money and saving enough of it to spend on leisure things. However it is a little upsetting that the majority of citizens cannot expect to retire at a decent age and will be worked as hard as they can be worked well into old age.

I kind of like various european systems that understand the importance of a little lesiure time.


Slightly different question. A man earns so much money that he can give his child enough so that the child need not ever work. Would you prevent that?

Personally I would disapprove of such an arrangement since it is not good for the child's characters to have all handed to him without effort, but I would not prevent it.

ruveyn



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

11 Aug 2011, 2:26 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

That is not out of laziness that is out of making enough money and saving enough of it to spend on leisure things. However it is a little upsetting that the majority of citizens cannot expect to retire at a decent age and will be worked as hard as they can be worked well into old age.

I kind of like various european systems that understand the importance of a little lesiure time.


Slightly different question. A man earns so much money that he can give his child enough so that the child need not ever work. Would you prevent that?

Personally I would disapprove of such an arrangement since it is not good for the child's characters to have all handed to him without effort, but I would not prevent it.

ruveyn


I think to just hand a child a wealthy future without expecting them to do any work is a very messed up thing to do and that sort of behavior creates a pampered selfish class that has no clue what empathy is and cannot comprehend how they might be hurting others with this behavior. So I would hope it would be prevented.

I mean why is it that if someone from the lower class works their ass off they cannot really expect to become wealthy..but if a child is born into a wealthy family and raised like a spoiled naive brat, and does no work it is very likely they will stay wealthy and probably even become more wealthy.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,953
Location:      

11 Aug 2011, 2:29 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
What is so bad about socialism anyways?

What is your personal experience with Socialism? Have you ever lived in a Socialist country? Do you even understand what Socialism really is?

I have a feeling you are going to start shouting about soviet russia or something if I answer those questions.

No. I ask those questions to learn your answers. Soviet Russia is no longer relevant, since it failed utterly as a Socialist experiment.
Sweetleaf wrote:
I have not lived in a socialist country I have just read up a lot on socialism and have done research on countries like Canada, Sweden, France ect. that have somewhat socialist systems...and I like what I see.

So your only understanding of Socialism comes from books, and not from direct observation of Socialist tyranny.
Sweetleaf wrote:
Yes I know what socialism is and how it can be abused.......I also know what capitalism is and how it can be abused.

Every political system is open for abuse.

I think that your fondness for a Socialist state is an issue of the grass looking greener from your side of the metaphorical fence. Socialism would also be to your benefit, so of course you are for it. As for me, living in a Socialist state would reduce my income by about half, as my tax assessment would likely jump from 32% to over 60% - unless I took a cut in pay, worked fewer hours, and reduced my productivity to mediocre levels; then I might be taxed at only 20-30%, but receive a stipend from the government as compensation for working only 32 hours each week.

Hmm ... not a bad deal ... work less, get paid more ... I suppose this Socialism thing might not be so bad for me, either.


_________________
The mere fact that science may not yet adequately explain an object, event, or experience does not mean the immediate explanation should automatically default to a conspiratorial, extraterrestrial, paranormal, or supernatural cause.


over9000
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2011
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 214

11 Aug 2011, 2:34 pm

What is wrong with socialism? I will tell you what is wrong with socialism!

There is nothing more evil than encouraging people to be more dependent on the government. As Ronald Reagan said, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" I don't need or want the government's help on anything. Anyone who thinks this sort of thing will work are wide eyed idealists and they need to shut the hell up.

There is no compassion in the welfare system. NONE. ZILTCH. Are you going to be compassionate with your own money, or someone elses? Europeans don't give to charity hardly at all because they know the government will do it for them. And since when was it compassionate to pass out handouts when you know that it is not going to help them learn how to manage themselves?


I'm a Tea party activist, hell yeah!



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

11 Aug 2011, 2:37 pm

Also, the other problem is that if a system is too socialist it will often discourage people working hard by taxing them relentlessly for everything they do. Thus, innovation is slowed and people don't bother working as hard as they should because whatever they do, their money will be taken from them anyway.



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

11 Aug 2011, 2:37 pm

Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
What is so bad about socialism anyways?

What is your personal experience with Socialism? Have you ever lived in a Socialist country? Do you even understand what Socialism really is?

I have a feeling you are going to start shouting about soviet russia or something if I answer those questions.

No. I ask those questions to learn your answers. Soviet Russia is no longer relevant, since it failed utterly as a Socialist experiment.
Sweetleaf wrote:
I have not lived in a socialist country I have just read up a lot on socialism and have done research on countries like Canada, Sweden, France ect. that have somewhat socialist systems...and I like what I see.

So your only understanding of Socialism comes from books, and not from direct observation of Socialist tyranny.
Sweetleaf wrote:
Yes I know what socialism is and how it can be abused.......I also know what capitalism is and how it can be abused.

Every political system is open for abuse.

I think that your fondness for a Socialist state is an issue of the grass looking greener from this side of the metaphorical fence. Socialism would also be to your benefit, so of course you are for it. As for me, living in a Socialist state would reduce my income by about half, as my tax assessment would likely jump from 32% to over 60% - unless I took a cut in pay, worked fewer hours, and reduced my productivity to mediocre levels; then I might be taxed at only 20-30%, but receive a stipend from the government as compensation for working only 32 hours each week.

Hmm ... not a bad deal ... work less, get paid more ... I suppose this Socialism thing might not be so bad for me, either!

:wink:


Like I said I am aware of how socialism can be abused.....but I would argue most people in Canada, France and Sweden for instance do not see their system as an example of tyranny. But yes considering I live in the U.S and we have more of a capitalist system I have no way of having ever lived in a more socialist system.......so yes i have to read books on it, find info on the internet, watch documentaries to get information about it.

And yes my point with saying socialism and capitalism can both be abused was that any system can be abused.

And yeah socialism would benifit me and many other people......I happen to have some mental problems that interfere with my fucntioning so yes I do prefer a system that acknowledges that people like me might need some assistance with supporting themself...rather than a system that kind of tells me I'm just a burden on society and am 'just not trying hard enoug.' I have been trying very hard ever since I was a child.

Also if you go back and read my original post you will notice I am not pushing for a pure socialist system, I was more just bringing up some of the aspects of it I like.......and that I feel should be applied. I myself do not think aboslute socialism can work for a large population any better than absolute capitalism would.



Phonic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,329
Location: The graveyard of discarded toy soldiers.

11 Aug 2011, 2:37 pm

Quote:
Ok well in your first post I belive you referred to me as a moron...which was kind of rude to begin with, so to be honest I was not so intrested in what you had to say after that.


I did not call you specifically a moron, I berated the thread.


_________________
'not only has he hacked his intellect away from his feelings, but he has smashed his feelings and his capacity for judgment into smithereens'.


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,953
Location:      

11 Aug 2011, 2:40 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
What is so bad about socialism anyways? ... I myself do not think aboslute socialism can work for a large population any better than absolute capitalism would.

You have just provided the best answer to your own question.

Well done, Ms. Leaf.

Well done.


_________________
The mere fact that science may not yet adequately explain an object, event, or experience does not mean the immediate explanation should automatically default to a conspiratorial, extraterrestrial, paranormal, or supernatural cause.


Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

11 Aug 2011, 2:40 pm

over9000 wrote:
Europeans don't give to charity hardly at all because they know the government will do it for them.


Some people still give to charities; lots don't for that reason but for other reasons too. People especially are hacked off when government actually gives taxpayers' money to charities whose causes are either utterly abhorrent to many or where the idea of them even being charities in the first place is very, very debatable - i.e. lobbying organisations.

If you're a keen drinker, would you voluntarily hand over money to a 'charity' that lobbies for far higher alcohol prices and an even more restrictive set of purchasing rules?



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

11 Aug 2011, 2:42 pm

Tequila wrote:
Also, the other problem is that if a system is too socialist it will often discourage people working hard by taxing them relentlessly for everything they do. Thus, innovation is slowed and people don't bother working as hard as they should because whatever they do, their money will be taken from them anyway.


That argument I can see to a point, but I would hope profit alone is seriously not the only thing that would drive someone to contribute. But yes too much socialism just like too much capitalism could have bad consequences. Also though in some more socialist countries yes taxes are higher but pregnant women take a break from work and still be paid, it is common for people to get paid vacations, and should someone face a medical emergancy and need immediate medical attention they can get some paid time off to recover and are not rushed to do so(recovory time varies so this is a good thing.)...and it has been medically proven that too much stress and pushing yourself too hard is bad for you.