This PPR forum could be enjoyable, but it's oten not.

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Moog
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17 Nov 2011, 2:34 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

I hope that is not how I am being read. I find the advantages of inclusion (vigorous dialogue)
outweigh those of exclusion (people only talking to those who agree with them)
with this said I do think it is rude to perform a drive-by your God does not exist.
when the discussion was Faith vs Works or which bible should I buy and I pray I have never done so.

Not specifically you Jakob, I quite enjoy your posts for the main part, when I do bother to read PPR.

There are various degrees of tolerance and intolerance on either side of the atheist/religious divide here. I'm not singling anyone out.

If I had the power, I'd probably split the forums into 2 or possibly more divisions. Though I do think there is value in atheists and the religious coming together in conversation or debate, and I wouldn't want to eliminate that entirely, but I think there needs to be spaces where it's just one or the other, and that's not possible here, so one party dominates.

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shrox
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17 Nov 2011, 2:40 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

shrox wrote:

When I die, I will just stop. No spirit goes anywhere, the machine breaks and fails.

At some soon to pass future time, I will be remembered, restored and magnified to a new immortal existence that is tangible. Some have called it quickening.

So Jesus saves me from non-existence.

Okay, so you're an annihilationist. You still seem to believe either in Original Sin or some kind of innate human depravity (which is deeply unpalatable to me).

Also, why does God award these goodies of eternal life only to those who buy into His son's story? If He was so great, why would he care if I believed in him? If He was so benevolent, why would he be so petty?

No labels please, Quaker is the best fit for me it seems...

Innate human depravity...like Sodom and Gomorrah? Like it was is Noah's day? Or Saddam Hussein? Or Moammar Gadhafi? Like hundreds of serial killers and millions of pedophiles alive today? Or the US soldiers that abused prisoners? Or even myself? Yeah, it's out there...

shrox
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17 Nov 2011, 2:42 pm

Moog wrote:

...Not specifically you Jakob, I quite enjoy your posts for the main part, when I do bother to read PPR.

There are various degrees of tolerance and intolerance on either side of the atheist/religious divide here. I'm not singling anyone out.

If I had the power, I'd probably split the forums into 2 or possibly more divisions. Though I do think there is value in atheists and the religious coming together in conversation or debate, and I wouldn't want to eliminate that entirely, but I think there needs to be spaces where it's just one or the other, and that's not possible here, so one party dominates.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dJolYw8tnk[/youtube]

mar00
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17 Nov 2011, 2:45 pm

shrox wrote:

mar00 wrote:

This is odd, why dont you just limit participants to believers only, add something in the thread title and if someone violates ask mods to do something about it. Idk how that would work but you just cannot expect privacy in an open forum and open thread. For instance, add in every post that other opinions of non-believers are not welcomed and irrelevant.

Unfortunately atheists have had a very hard time throughout the history so you might want to consider it as a bad karma. People have a right to bash religion and I am very glad they do. However trashing believers'-only discussion is super impolite. On the other hand talking about religion in a place where majority is atheists is not really sensible either. You could unite your forces and try to convert us as your God tells to. Or doesn't it?

My "rules" post was a total joke...

I was replying only to your first post without having read anything else.

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17 Nov 2011, 2:55 pm

shrox wrote:

If you believe that God's punishment for non-believers is annihilation, then you're an annihilationist. I have XX chromosomes and the DNA structure of a human, so I'm a human female. Labels are usually just shorthand for reality, unless it's a contentious label like 'terrorist'.

1. I have no objective acounts of what went down at Sodom and Gomorrah.
2. Ditto for Noah's day.
3. Saddam was one dickhead, that doesn't make all of humanity innately dickish.
4. Ditto for Gaddafi.
5. Serial killers are the exception, not the rule.
6. Paedophilia is a psychosexual illness and its existence does not prove humanity's innate depravity.
7. US soldiers were in a military culture that encourages that kind of depravity, again this does not prove that humans are innately depraved.
8. I'm sure you're lovely.

I can't see any innate depravity in myself or in 99% of people I know. Some people are jerks, but it's generally nothing that's worth a Supreme Being getting upset over. Yes, I have known the other 1% of people to do some horrible things, but for some reason I'm still quite optimistic about human nature in general.

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shrox
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17 Nov 2011, 3:00 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

shrox wrote:

Again where did I say anything like that? How about asking if I am "xxxxx", then give a brief definition.

There is the Inner Court, and the Outer Court. Know Jesus now, it's all your's. Know Jesus after, the Outer Court is your's. The Outer Court is very nice too.

And there is no punishment.

shrox
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17 Nov 2011, 3:08 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

...7. US soldiers were in a military culture that encourages that kind of depravity, again this does not prove that humans are innately depraved...

I would say that is an example of innately depraved, although inherently might be a better description for what I am thinking.

Do you see that situation as a "surface" thing or a "core" thing? Surface being something one might join in on, core being something one thinks of and might be looking for and hoping to participate in.

Last edited by shrox on 17 Nov 2011, 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

puddingmouse
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17 Nov 2011, 3:08 pm

shrox wrote:

Again where did I say anything like that? How about asking if I am "xxxxx", then give a brief definition.

Here:

shrox wrote:

So Jesus saves me from non-existence.

Just love the label. 'Annihilationist' is a damn cool word

shrox wrote:

There is the Inner Court, and the Outer Court. Know Jesus now, it's all your's. Know Jesus after, the Outer Court is your's. The Outer Court is very nice too.

I don't know what you're talking about. Why would God set a Jesus-based door policy on this Inner Court, anyway?

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puddingmouse
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17 Nov 2011, 3:09 pm

shrox wrote:

Do you see that situation as a "surface" thing or a "core" thing? Surface being something you might join in on, core being something you think of and might be looking for.

Yep.

I also think only 1% of people have evil at their core. Or maybe less. Probably less.

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Last edited by puddingmouse on 17 Nov 2011, 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

shrox
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17 Nov 2011, 3:10 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

shrox wrote:

Again where did I say anything like that? How about asking if I am "xxxxx", then give a brief definition.

Here:

shrox wrote:

So Jesus saves me from non-existence.

Just love the label. 'Annihilationist' is a damn cool word

shrox wrote:

There is the Inner Court, and the Outer Court. Know Jesus now, it's all your's. Know Jesus after, the Outer Court is your's. The Outer Court is very nice too.

I don't know what you're talking about. Why would God set a Jesus-based door policy on this Inner Court, anyway?

Jesus is the same God from Genesis to Revelations. I don't think they tag teamed from one to another. Jehovah first and then Yahweh.

puddingmouse
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17 Nov 2011, 3:13 pm

shrox wrote:

Jesus is the same God from Genesis to Revelations. I don't think they tag teamed from one to another.

You see, the fact that I had such a hard time believing that, is one of the reasons I gave up on Christianity.

Also, that doesn't change the fact that here we have a supposedly omnibenevolent being that only offers his nicest treats to those who beg for them.

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Last edited by puddingmouse on 17 Nov 2011, 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

shrox
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17 Nov 2011, 3:14 pm

This is where it kind of starts bogging down over semantics.

Maybe this will help.

http://www.pym.org/resources/interpretation-quakerism

Does anyone else have some description that might be helpful in understanding where we are each coming from?

shrox
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17 Nov 2011, 3:16 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

shrox wrote:

Jesus is the same God from Genesis to Revelations. I don't think they tag teamed from one to another.

Accepting a free gift is not begging.

And how is it a "fact"? (just nudging you there, I realize you most likely do not mean imperial evidence.)

Last edited by shrox on 17 Nov 2011, 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

puddingmouse
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17 Nov 2011, 3:17 pm

shrox wrote:

This is where we retreat from scrutinising ones's beliefs in favour of mysticism. Been there, done that.

Sorry if that sounds harsh.

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puddingmouse
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17 Nov 2011, 3:19 pm

shrox wrote:

Accepting a free gift is not begging.

It's hardly free, imo - but you may think differently.

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shrox
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17 Nov 2011, 3:20 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

shrox wrote:

This is where we retreat from scrutinising ones's beliefs in favour of mysticism. Been there, done that.

Sorry if that sounds harsh.

What? I total didn't understand that.

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