Libertarian fire dept. lets another home burn

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ruveyn
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10 Dec 2011, 10:41 am

NextFact wrote:

The importance of money has for so long been over exaggerated. In this case the $75 fee was more important than the persons home, this is a by product of a greedy and selfish capitalist society that put's money before everything, and now as we see money is in many cases more important than the life of a fellow creature. Me personally, I disagree with the entire American system and I aspire to move out of this country in my life time. Forget everything you were conditioned and educated to believe, America is the epicenter of materialism, greed, immorality and corruption.

Money was invented over 6000 years ago simply because the cobinatoric complexity of simple barter is to much for all but the most primitive societies. Without money complex transactions involving many kinds of goods and services could not be managed. Neither can credit be managed without money. Money is necessary for any kind complex society or economy.

You could not get tomorrow's supper in our economy if there were no money.

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blauSamstag
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10 Dec 2011, 10:45 am

cw10 wrote:

NextFact wrote:

Move to China, because it's a Utopia you know.

China is pretty capitalist these days, with the unfortunate feature that if you become successful the government becomes your business partner whether you like it or not.

Maybe he could move to Cuba? Tricky to do that, but i don't know where the communist havens are these days.

I'm also confused because i was conditioned and educated to believe that america is the epicenter of materialism, greed, and corruption. Just not immorality - i was conditioned to believe that western europe has a lock on that one.

cw10
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10 Dec 2011, 10:45 am

ruveyn wrote:

Vexcalibur wrote:

cw10 wrote:

Capitalism works.

Citation needed.

cw10 overstated it somewhat. There has never been a pure capitalist economy. The closest ever was Hong Kong under British governance. However it is clear to see that industrial economies with a significant portion of their economies working under a market system with prices largely set by supply and demand and where investment is not centrally controlled afford their people the greatest amount of material prosperity.

The Hell Holes and basket cases of the world are non-industrialized nations. There disease and poverty reign supreme.

ruveyn

And war and famine and racism, etc.

ruveyn
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10 Dec 2011, 10:47 am

cw10 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Vexcalibur wrote:

cw10 wrote:

Capitalism works.

Citation needed.

And war and famine and racism, etc.

The lack of a market economy is of more consequence than racism. And famine is the direct result of not having a functioning market economy. Without the resources to buy seed, fertilizer, farm tools and to distribute the crop and without credit famine will rule the land.

ruveyn

cw10
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10 Dec 2011, 10:47 am

blauSamstag wrote:

cw10 wrote:

NextFact wrote:

Move to China, because it's a Utopia you know.

If the government lets you become successful before they steal your property and grant it to someone else.

cw10
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10 Dec 2011, 10:49 am

ruveyn wrote:

cw10 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Vexcalibur wrote:

cw10 wrote:

Capitalism works.

Citation needed.

And war and famine and racism, etc.

It turns out, it's market economy, distribution, and free trade. Without any of those it fails. The largest issue in non developed countries is distribution.

blauSamstag
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10 Dec 2011, 10:50 am

cw10 wrote:

blauSamstag wrote:

cw10 wrote:

NextFact wrote:

Move to China, because it's a Utopia you know.

If the government lets you become successful before they steal your property and grant it to someone else.

The trick is not to get noticed too early in the game, i hear.

puddingmouse
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10 Dec 2011, 11:37 am

blauSamstag wrote:

Just not immorality - i was conditioned to believe that western europe has a lock on that one.

That makes me feel a strange sort of pride.

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Burnbridge
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10 Dec 2011, 2:43 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Wow, I'm agreeing with ruveyn for once! Mark yer calendars!

I'm into money as a formalization of the barter system. Pure genius. However, I prefer to barter whenever I can. I'm doing a work-trade fixing a house right now instead of paying rent. It's ideal. Work on the house to stay in the house. Barter is a lot more emotionally rewarding to me than purchase is. But then, I'm very much into DIY and simplifying exchanges.

Oh, and I tend to get (most all of) tomorrow's supper out of the garden. I save seeds and compost my own fertilizer. I can preserves. Don't eat processed food, don't even eat very much milled flour even. It takes work, (a capital investment of labor, perhaps?) but does not rely on "market economy." I'd love to get completely out of the supermarket, beyond the $75 USD I spend there now per month. I think I need to get my own little chunk of land where I can raise aminals and staples first. :D

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Chronos
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11 Dec 2011, 12:17 am

LKL wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/tennessee-family-home-burns-while-firefighters-watch-191241763.html

It's a bad system. The fee should not be optional. The fire department still has to respond to the fire to ensure none of the surrounding structures that paid the fee catch on fire, and by letting the fire burn they introduce unneeded risk to the structures.

Tadzio
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11 Dec 2011, 12:32 am

androbot2084 wrote:

It's amazing to me that Conservatives think that people are not entitled to fire protection.

That is why Grotius is burned in effigy by Skulls & Bones every full Moon, in secrecy.

Tadzio

eric76
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15 Sep 2012, 6:22 pm

LKL wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/tennessee-family-home-burns-while-firefighters-watch-191241763.html

What makes you think the fire department is Libertarian?

eric76
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15 Sep 2012, 6:30 pm

Jacoby wrote:

I'm sure if this was a forest fire area they would of put it out although I'm pretty sure they let those burn themselves out rather than wasting resources.

I think that forest fires are often handled by state or federal firefighters.

Someone once told me about a fire they were on that had federal firefighters spearheading the fight. The federal firefighters would quit at quitting time and go back the next day to continue even when they could have made very significantly headway if they fought it at night when the weather was significantly cooler. So instead of taking care of a fire in a couple days, they were content to let it burn weeks so that they could get paid for those weeks of work.

Of course, the person who told me about this may just have not liked the federal firefighters for other reasons and was exaggerating.

Jacoby
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15 Sep 2012, 6:45 pm

eric76 wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

I'm sure if this was a forest fire area they would of put it out although I'm pretty sure they let those burn themselves out rather than wasting resources.

I don't know about firefighters but I definitely believe they intentionally drag their feet on road construction judging by how long it takes them so who knows.

thewhitrbbit
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15 Sep 2012, 9:21 pm

The people in that story made a choice not to pay the fire tax. In some rural areas fire dept services are not covered by the regular taxes people pay. Usually it's due to population density. In these cases people pay a fire tax in addition to their regular taxes (which are lower than a metropolitan person).

Now some may ask why not just let them pay?

How often do houses burn down? A fire department costs money to run. Utilities, fuel, maintenance, training, wages if it's a paid dept, not cheap.

The fire tax pays for that. If people knew they could just pay when it happened, the department would go under because they wouldn't get the revenue to pay for operations, and when they were really needed, they wouldn't be there.

I feel no sympathy. They made a decision, they played a game, and they lost.

xenon13
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15 Sep 2012, 11:34 pm

Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps people were unaware that they had to pay extra?

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