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Republicans succeed in ploy to increase unsafe abortions

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Kraichgauer
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24 Jan 2012, 9:25 pm

Raptor wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
How would you like someone speaking in terms of you as less than a human being?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


He's a conservative on the internet, he already knows what dehumanization feels like.


LOL good one! :lol:
However, I refused to allow myself to be dehumanized on the internet or anywhere else because I am what I am and that cannot be taken away from me.
Let the left writhe under the whip of their own self-doubt....


Who says we have self-doubt?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Raptor
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24 Jan 2012, 9:27 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
A society that actually lives by the morals it teaches should be willing to help care for that unplanned for child, if the parents (or remaining parent) isn't able to provide care financially.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


You would make us all slaves to stupidity and lack of planing? That is unjust.

Why should I pay a cent for something I had nothing to do with?
ruveyn

No. You are not paying any cent for it. State-funded abortions actually reduce overall government investment, so in fact you are making money from it. You are now free to shut up.


If it's state funded then, yes, it IS costing. We shouldn't be paying for these litters of illegitimate children either.
I can assure you if they knew they weren't going to get a check they'd learn to practice abstinence.


Really?
Prior to contraceptives being legal and available, and before there was anything like welfare, poor people had children, just like anyone else.
And your use of "litters" of children dehumanizes poor people. How would you like someone speaking in terms of you as less than a human being?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Heard of welfare fraud? I see it quite often.
"Dehumanized"? Only if your allow yourself to be......



Kraichgauer
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24 Jan 2012, 9:40 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
A society that actually lives by the morals it teaches should be willing to help care for that unplanned for child, if the parents (or remaining parent) isn't able to provide care financially.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


You would make us all slaves to stupidity and lack of planing? That is unjust.

Why should I pay a cent for something I had nothing to do with?
ruveyn

No. You are not paying any cent for it. State-funded abortions actually reduce overall government investment, so in fact you are making money from it. You are now free to shut up.


If it's state funded then, yes, it IS costing. We shouldn't be paying for these litters of illegitimate children either.
I can assure you if they knew they weren't going to get a check they'd learn to practice abstinence.


Really?
Prior to contraceptives being legal and available, and before there was anything like welfare, poor people had children, just like anyone else.
And your use of "litters" of children dehumanizes poor people. How would you like someone speaking in terms of you as less than a human being?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Heard of welfare fraud? I see it quite often.
"Dehumanized"? Only if your allow yourself to be......


I won't deny the existence of welfare fraud, but you can't paint those with legitimate need with the same brush.
And it's not just a matter of not allowing yourself to be dehumanized; there are those who have no problem depriving the needy because they see the needy as less than human beings. Not showing any compassion for those without is made easy when those without are seen as less than people.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Raptor
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24 Jan 2012, 9:54 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
A society that actually lives by the morals it teaches should be willing to help care for that unplanned for child, if the parents (or remaining parent) isn't able to provide care financially.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


You would make us all slaves to stupidity and lack of planing? That is unjust.

Why should I pay a cent for something I had nothing to do with?
ruveyn

No. You are not paying any cent for it. State-funded abortions actually reduce overall government investment, so in fact you are making money from it. You are now free to shut up.


If it's state funded then, yes, it IS costing. We shouldn't be paying for these litters of illegitimate children either.
I can assure you if they knew they weren't going to get a check they'd learn to practice abstinence.


Really?
Prior to contraceptives being legal and available, and before there was anything like welfare, poor people had children, just like anyone else.
And your use of "litters" of children dehumanizes poor people. How would you like someone speaking in terms of you as less than a human being?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Heard of welfare fraud? I see it quite often.
"Dehumanized"? Only if your allow yourself to be......


I won't deny the existence of welfare fraud, but you can't paint those with legitimate need with the same brush.
And it's not just a matter of not allowing yourself to be dehumanized; there are those who have no problem depriving the needy because they see the needy as less than human beings. Not showing any compassion for those without is made easy when those without are seen as less than people.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Untermenschen?



Kraichgauer
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24 Jan 2012, 9:59 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
A society that actually lives by the morals it teaches should be willing to help care for that unplanned for child, if the parents (or remaining parent) isn't able to provide care financially.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


You would make us all slaves to stupidity and lack of planing? That is unjust.

Why should I pay a cent for something I had nothing to do with?
ruveyn

No. You are not paying any cent for it. State-funded abortions actually reduce overall government investment, so in fact you are making money from it. You are now free to shut up.


If it's state funded then, yes, it IS costing. We shouldn't be paying for these litters of illegitimate children either.
I can assure you if they knew they weren't going to get a check they'd learn to practice abstinence.


Really?
Prior to contraceptives being legal and available, and before there was anything like welfare, poor people had children, just like anyone else.
And your use of "litters" of children dehumanizes poor people. How would you like someone speaking in terms of you as less than a human being?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Heard of welfare fraud? I see it quite often.
"Dehumanized"? Only if your allow yourself to be......


I won't deny the existence of welfare fraud, but you can't paint those with legitimate need with the same brush.
And it's not just a matter of not allowing yourself to be dehumanized; there are those who have no problem depriving the needy because they see the needy as less than human beings. Not showing any compassion for those without is made easy when those without are seen as less than people.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Untermenschen?


Yep, that's what the underclass is often viewed as, unfortunately.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Raptor
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24 Jan 2012, 10:22 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
How would you like someone speaking in terms of you as less than a human being?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


He's a conservative on the internet, he already knows what dehumanization feels like.


LOL good one! :lol:
However, I refused to allow myself to be dehumanized on the internet or anywhere else because I am what I am and that cannot be taken away from me.
Let the left writhe under the whip of their own self-doubt....


Who says we have self-doubt?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


You all seem to have an affinity for being offended and being victims of anything conservative......



Kraichgauer
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24 Jan 2012, 10:31 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
How would you like someone speaking in terms of you as less than a human being?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


He's a conservative on the internet, he already knows what dehumanization feels like.


LOL good one! :lol:
However, I refused to allow myself to be dehumanized on the internet or anywhere else because I am what I am and that cannot be taken away from me.
Let the left writhe under the whip of their own self-doubt....


Who says we have self-doubt?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


You all seem to have an affinity for being offended and being victims of anything conservative......


The exact same thing could be said about conservatives.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Raptor
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24 Jan 2012, 11:02 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
How would you like someone speaking in terms of you as less than a human being?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


He's a conservative on the internet, he already knows what dehumanization feels like.


LOL good one! :lol:
However, I refused to allow myself to be dehumanized on the internet or anywhere else because I am what I am and that cannot be taken away from me.
Let the left writhe under the whip of their own self-doubt....


Who says we have self-doubt?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Some, but nothing like the majority of you people……. :roll:

You all seem to have an affinity for being offended and being victims of anything conservative......


The exact same thing could be said about conservatives.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Kraichgauer
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25 Jan 2012, 12:12 am

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
How would you like someone speaking in terms of you as less than a human being?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


He's a conservative on the internet, he already knows what dehumanization feels like.


LOL good one! :lol:
However, I refused to allow myself to be dehumanized on the internet or anywhere else because I am what I am and that cannot be taken away from me.
Let the left writhe under the whip of their own self-doubt....


Who says we have self-doubt?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Some, but nothing like the majority of you people……. :roll:

You all seem to have an affinity for being offended and being victims of anything conservative......


The exact same thing could be said about conservatives.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Was there a message in there?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



abacacus
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25 Jan 2012, 12:41 am

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
How would you like someone speaking in terms of you as less than a human being?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


He's a conservative on the internet, he already knows what dehumanization feels like.


LOL good one! :lol:
However, I refused to allow myself to be dehumanized on the internet or anywhere else because I am what I am and that cannot be taken away from me.
Let the left writhe under the whip of their own self-doubt....


Who says we have self-doubt?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


You all seem to have an affinity for being offended and being victims of anything conservative......


You mean like when Conservatives get asked about their opinion on welfare or socialised medicine?

At least we only get annoyed when people deny reality.


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Kraichgauer
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25 Jan 2012, 12:48 am

abacacus wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
How would you like someone speaking in terms of you as less than a human being?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


He's a conservative on the internet, he already knows what dehumanization feels like.


LOL good one! :lol:
However, I refused to allow myself to be dehumanized on the internet or anywhere else because I am what I am and that cannot be taken away from me.
Let the left writhe under the whip of their own self-doubt....


Who says we have self-doubt?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


You all seem to have an affinity for being offended and being victims of anything conservative......


You mean like when Conservatives get asked about their opinion on welfare or socialised medicine?

At least we only get annoyed when people deny reality.


Amen!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



LKL
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25 Jan 2012, 1:11 am

AngelRho wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
If you want to define sentience as consciousness, fine. I'm fine with euthanasia too. You can't then say, 'does that mean you'd kill my granny with Alzheimers?' No, I wouldn't. Limited consciousness isn't the same as no consciousness (which is what the zef has until the third trimester).

OK, but we still have no evidence that the zef lacks even limited consciousness. A "clump of cells" still acts with purpose and somehow knows what it's supposed to do. So if you're saying that there is absolutely no consciousness after implantation, then that to me is an extraordinary claim.

by that definition, a sponge or a lichen is sentient. You make the word absolutely meaningless. A clam or even a jellyfish has more response to its environment than a newly implanted blastocyst.



91
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25 Jan 2012, 4:08 am

You can play the game with pro-choice people all day. Every argument they make pretty much fits under the SLED acronym, defeat one point, they just switch.

S, Size (the old it's too small, my mate is 6'5, he is not more of a person than I am)
L, Level of development (not developed enough, the answer, so what? I am more developed than toddler but am not justified in killing one)
E, Enviroment (the 'it's in me I own it' line that has nothing to do with human worth, a small trip down the birth canal changes nothing about a human being except where they are)
D, Degree of dependency (cause somehow that justifies an unrestricted right to kill, my grand father is in life support at the moment, it does not make him less of a person)

Go through this thread, just about ever pro-choice argument will fit within the acronym.

Also for people who think that this issue has anything to do with women's rights, they should realize that outside of the west, the three most deadly words are 'it's a girl'.

http://www.itsagirlmovie.com/


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25 Jan 2012, 5:47 am

LKL wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
If you want to define sentience as consciousness, fine. I'm fine with euthanasia too. You can't then say, 'does that mean you'd kill my granny with Alzheimers?' No, I wouldn't. Limited consciousness isn't the same as no consciousness (which is what the zef has until the third trimester).

OK, but we still have no evidence that the zef lacks even limited consciousness. A "clump of cells" still acts with purpose and somehow knows what it's supposed to do. So if you're saying that there is absolutely no consciousness after implantation, then that to me is an extraordinary claim.

by that definition, a sponge or a lichen is sentient. You make the word absolutely meaningless. A clam or even a jellyfish has more response to its environment than a newly implanted blastocyst.

Irrelevant. We aren't talking about those things. We're talking about human beings. Nobody thinks twice about killing plants or other animals for food, and some people hold that killing animals even for food is cruel. Even in the Christian worldview, there is some indication in the Bible that even animals were given souls, though admittedly I'm not 100% clear on how the usage of "spirit" vs "soul" adds up in the original language. It is worth noting, however. So it's a question of what is right and good for human beings. Destroying their own is never acceptable and for it to even be necessary, there has to be extreme circumstances already in place to even consider it. Such is the case with the death penalty. If you can demonstrate same with abortion, I'm more inclined to be understanding.



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25 Jan 2012, 5:49 am

91 wrote:
You can play the game with pro-choice people all day. Every argument they make pretty much fits under the SLED acronym, defeat one point, they just switch.

S, Size (the old it's too small, my mate is 6'5, he is not more of a person than I am)
L, Level of development (not developed enough, the answer, so what? I am more developed than toddler but am not justified in killing one)
E, Enviroment (the 'it's in me I own it' line that has nothing to do with human worth, a small trip down the birth canal changes nothing about a human being except where they are)
D, Degree of dependency (cause somehow that justifies an unrestricted right to kill, my grand father is in life support at the moment, it does not make him less of a person)

Go through this thread, just about ever pro-choice argument will fit within the acronym.

Also for people who think that this issue has anything to do with women's rights, they should realize that outside of the west, the three most deadly words are 'it's a girl'.

http://www.itsagirlmovie.com/


Hi 91,

The old "Men are strong only so that they can meet their responsibility to protect others" line leads to an extreme favoritism for male children for all subscribers of such nonsense.

S.L.E.D. is just another version of prejudice to veil the despicable nature of "keep them barefoot and pregnant" philosophy of male chauvinism. Camille Paglia has much better acronyms against such 4-letter dismissals of reproductive rights by repressive religious institutions and their "no rights for others" members, but certainly, the law even gives rights to extremely distinct any and all Uranian Aphrodites' insulting Mr. Universe's Big Ball Brained Ego (41).

Tadzio



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25 Jan 2012, 5:58 am

AngelRho wrote:
LKL wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
If you want to define sentience as consciousness, fine. I'm fine with euthanasia too. You can't then say, 'does that mean you'd kill my granny with Alzheimers?' No, I wouldn't. Limited consciousness isn't the same as no consciousness (which is what the zef has until the third trimester).

OK, but we still have no evidence that the zef lacks even limited consciousness. A "clump of cells" still acts with purpose and somehow knows what it's supposed to do. So if you're saying that there is absolutely no consciousness after implantation, then that to me is an extraordinary claim.

by that definition, a sponge or a lichen is sentient. You make the word absolutely meaningless. A clam or even a jellyfish has more response to its environment than a newly implanted blastocyst.

Irrelevant. We aren't talking about those things. We're talking about human beings. Nobody thinks twice about killing plants or other animals for food, and some people hold that killing animals even for food is cruel. Even in the Christian worldview, there is some indication in the Bible that even animals were given souls, though admittedly I'm not 100% clear on how the usage of "spirit" vs "soul" adds up in the original language. It is worth noting, however. So it's a question of what is right and good for human beings. Destroying their own is never acceptable and for it to even be necessary, there has to be extreme circumstances already in place to even consider it. Such is the case with the death penalty. If you can demonstrate same with abortion, I'm more inclined to be understanding.


Irrelevant. You can't prove the existence of the soul, so let's assume it doesn't exist. You haven't proved that either:
1. souls exist, and/or,
2. a foetus has consciousness before the third trimester (cut-off point for abortions in my country is 24 weeks - which I think is too late).

LKL has already demonstrated in many, many similar debates that there is no consciousness before the third trimester. Counter-evidence, please.


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