Immigration and the Unmentionable Question

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Good. we're getting somewhere.


How about Templer and Arikawa:


I gave you that before.


Obviously it's impossible for me to prove. But the same applies to most things discussed on message boards. We can move forward, though, by agreeing step by step then ascertaining the likelyhood of the correlation I've suggested from what we do agree on.

What I find puzzling is that you insist on ignoring what I've written as regards the other genetically determined correlations that are taken as proven. Why do you do this?

Last edited by ascan on 26 Jan 2007, 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well, I've been reading some stuff on genetics and evolution. All mainstream stuff, btw.


Uh? How the hell can you say this discussion is based on racism? What have I said that I've not attempted to back up with reasoned argument?

OK you chaps, this guy lectures in psychology at Harvard. He's discussing Ashkenazi Jews

Source: http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/2006_06_17_thenewrepublic.html

Note my highlighting of text in the following:



That's just to establish that what I'm talking about is a perfectly reasonable thing to discuss, and that suggesting this thread is rooted in racism is way wide of the mark.

can we have a link to it? i couldn't find it on the wikipedia page.


i'm not ignoring it. what i am interested in here is the fact that you have been producing poor sources of evidence to back up your assertion.

from one of your previous posts:

the point here is, that this pioneer foundation is still heavily interested in eugenics. of course we are in the here and now, however, you cannot just discount things that happen in the past. perhaps if the US was still attempting to find ways to prove black people inferior to white, through scientific study, then you could legitimately discredit them.

as i have said, i don't really dispute the possibility that there may be some correlation between iq and race. of course it is possible. however, it seems to me that there is an underlying current of racial bigotry running through all the examples you have provided until now. and also, as i have stated, iq is not really an ideal means by which to judge the worth of a human being.

so, just to say for talking sake that your assertion turns out to be the case, what exactly is the point in knowing about it? why are you so interested?

It's reference 10 on the Wikipedia page. Like I said, the url is horrendously long and expands the page to mess up the format. I understand Alex isn't too keen on that!


I've provided evidence from a number of sources. Read the article I linked to by Pinker. It's based on a group of people having IQs, on average, significantly above the mean of 100. You may not be able to classify them as a race per se, but they are a relatively distinct population and the article examines the evidence from one study.


It's very likely, actually. I think it's accepted in the scientific community that IQ is to a large part genetically determined. We've already discussed differences between races that are determined in the same way, and although there are lots of grey areas between races, and you may not like the label "race", it goes without saying that someone from sub-Saharan Africa, who hadn't any immediate ancestors from Europe would have very dark skin. They'd also likely be relatively tall and lean compared to say those from Northern Europe. If they were from Western Africa they might have a genetic mutation that made them prone to sickle cell anemia, but also made them less susceptible to malaria. Not all would have these characteristics, but you don't even need to use any kind of statistical analysis to know that if you meet a tall, lean person with very dark skin and know he has that mutation I referred to, then more likely than not he, or his parents, are from Africa. So, why shouldn't IQ be the same? The brain is extremely complicated, it would be quite bizarre if some variations in how it functioned didn't correlate with race. Like I said, I can't prove it, but I can look at all the evidence I can find and make an informed assessment.

But I acknowledge your acceptance of the possibility, that last paragraph is just reinforcing the point.


Not at all. Are you saying the Templer and Arikawa study is influenced by bigotry? How about that Pinker chap?


Who said it was? I believe I provided a quote above to say:


I think I've also expressed a similar opinion elsewhere on this site at various times, though unfortunately not as eloquently as Mr Pinker.


I'm interested for various reasons, firstly because I find it fascinating. Have you read much about evolution and genetics? Secondly, because I'm tired of living in a society that claims to encourage freedom of speech, yet which inculcates lies and propaganda into young minds in order to further the agenda of the political elite and it's hangers-on, and allows those who do wish to speak freely to be threatened and assaulted.

Also, as I've commented elsewhere, capitalism and western democracy is founded on the false premise that if you work hard you can succeed. If the assertion regarding race and IQ is sound, then the oft-used excuse that people who are forced to live as an underclass in such places as the US do so because they are just bone-idle, and that idleness is a result of their culture, is left looking rather lame. It means people are really suffering prejudice, not at the hands of the nations citizens, but at the hands of the government entrusted to ensure their well-being. What's wrong with correcting that?

Last edited by ascan on 27 Jan 2007, 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

You best explain their interest in eugenics then, peebo, and how you believe that discredits research they fund. But, like I said, they're not the only people looking into what we're discussing. There'd likely be lots more if those engaging in this type of work weren't liable to be intimidated.

Iran seems to be a good place to do holocaust research. Maybe you could move there?

You know, it would be great if you could add something useful to this discussion!

Well I have made another thread before about aspies and their flaky world views. Seems to be a natural attraction of aspies to
unsavory topics. If it were not for the moderators I guess it would be much worst.

You can get others to debate the topic in a neutral scientific way
but I see your real purpose.

Really? What might that be?

Oh, if you think I'm in a British chapter of the KKK, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed! As for suggesting my views are "flaky", you'll find the basis of my argument in most current text books on evolution, genetics etc. Note I said "basis", as the race and IQ correlation is a subject many stay clear of for fear of intimidation.

I really can't see what your problem is, TheMachine1. In the time I've been on AS sites this subject has been discussed quite civilly, previously. Maybe you listen too much to certain other people at certain other places? Maybe you judge me on a few controversial posts at the expense of considering the wider picture?

Anyway, that's your problem. If you want to do something about it you've only got to ask, and I'll be happy to explain my motives etc.

in the context of your comment to themachine1, perhaps you could explain your motives to us all. it may reveal itself to be rather enlightening. so, if you don't mind...

Be a bit more specific, if you would, please, and I'll be happy to oblige.

Would you mind if 1000 black Islamic African's moved into your town?

Yes. Because:
1. I live in an English village, which doesn't have room for them without ripping up the surrounding countryside.
2. I feel it's important for at least some areas of England to maintain their cultures and traditions.
3. Currently, there are no no-go areas around here for white non-muslims. In many muslim areas of the UK people of European appearance aren't welcome and risk physical assault.
4. I like my country as it is. I like to go to the local shop and buy English food, and communicate in English with the proprietor.
5. I don't wish to risk imprisonment for unwittingly offending one with some reference to bacon sandwiches, or the like.
6. If I was that keen on meeting people of that description I'd move to Mogadishu.

And, I don't think any of that makes me racist, just a realist.

I hope that's clear.

Would you support a program in which the British government would provide money to encourage Africans, Indians, Jew, Etc to
relocate to other parts of the world?

If the government were to provide financial incentive to any foreigners here, who didn't want to abide by our laws and customs, to return home, then I'd be in favour. I use foreigners broadly, because having a British passport doesn't make you really British. Neither does skin colour, actually. I know black people who are very British, for example, and would make better neighbours than many white folk. However, I feel that many muslims consider themselves more muslim than British, and if they don't like the way we do things here we should help them to return to their native lands, if they wish.