Hey Christians, how can you believe in this???
DentArthurDent
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14 Jun 2014, 12:38 am
DentArthurDent wrote:
Daedelus1138 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Christianity had its day with the Crusades and the slaughter of the Cathars.
Which amounts to tired rhetoric that has nothing to do with the veracity of the truth claims of Christianity. Especially tired since some of the most irreligious societies in the 20th century killed many more people than the medieval Church ever dreamed of doing.
Ok so do you want to debate the voracity of contemporary christian beliefs? Trust me I am raring to go.
Thought not.
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14 Jun 2014, 7:17 am
Quote:
Would you like Christians to discard the new testament in favor of the old?
You should discard them both.
The first is a bigoted and deranged collection of ancient myth and the latter contains the purported ravings of an apocalyptic preacher who expected the world to end quickly. He utterly failed and hasn't been seen in 2,000 years. Just like all the others.
Kraichgauer
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14 Jun 2014, 10:17 am
simon_says wrote:
Quote:
Would you like Christians to discard the new testament in favor of the old?
You should discard them both.
The first is a bigoted and deranged collection of ancient myth and the latter contains the purported ravings of an apocalyptic preacher who expected the world to end quickly. He utterly failed and hasn't been seen in 2,000 years. Just like all the others.
Love your neighbor, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and others - even if what you say was true, the moral message of the New Testament is still invaluable and world changing.
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14 Jun 2014, 1:59 pm
DentArthurDent wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
Firslty you seem to be talking about "probabilities" as if they were nothing more than gambling odds, evidence unearthed by the SM allows for prediction and repetition, for a theory to exist it must constantly survive repeated attempts to disprove it, and yes even then it can be disproved just look at Newton's law of universal gravitation. It is not like the probability of, say, a roulette ball landing on a certain number a certain number of times over a period of spins. If this was the case the scientific method would fail. You say it is unreasonable to use the evidence found by the scientific method as a guiding principle, why? You seem to be suggesting that the Aristotelian method of pure thought without evidence is a more rational approach. Lastly I at no point on this thread or any other have ever suggested that science is infallible, the only people who would make a claim such as this are ones who do not understand the scientific method. If you read my post you will see this "the scientific method is at present the best way of attaining knowledge and understanding of the natural world" in other words we have not come up with a better way to understand the natural world, there may be one, but as yet we do not have it.
I have no issue with philosophy, I have issue with philosophy which has an Axiomatic basis into which all considerations and understandings must fit. Theology is not free to discuss the nature of existence without first acknowledging god, in essence theology takes the Axiom of God and then shoe horns everything into it trying to understand the mind of God, the non existence of God is given very little serious consideration. It is completely limited by its axiomatic law.
This is all well and good provided the theologian acknowledges that evidence based understanding of the natural universe is getting very close to showing that whilst God may exist there, is no need for one to explain the existence of the universe. But you lot will never do this, worse still if I dare to say there is no God you will all scream you cannot say that, you have no proof! Yet you expect society to accept the notion of the inability to prove the existence of god plus your insistence that you can feel the presence of the Lord, reveals that in all probability must God exist. You do this by ignoring the evidence of a purely naturalistic world and claiming that using science as your guiding principle is irrational. I find it hard to comprehend that you think basing your world view upon a belief system dreamed, up to fit into an also concocted notion of an all powerful creator is rational, whilst basing your world view upon actual evidence and observation is irrational. What a load of nonsense!
Sherlock03 wrote:
Also, this might be valid to the discussion. I have tried Atheism but found that I did not have enough faith for it.
Pascals wager is pathetic!
I think you are misinterpreting me when I say, "defining principle". I am not talking about molecular bonds or other scientific facets. I am talking about the defining principle of you. Asking such questions as why am I here, why should I be a good person, etc. For example, there is nothing scientific stopping you from killing someone. All it takes is the will to do so, yet your defining principles stop you. Untamed human nature is a violent animal that can be compared to no other creature on earth. In order to have a reason for humanity that overshadows and suppresses the animal, an individual must find a defining principles that gives them morality.
You seem to believe that you know my character without having been given the opportunity to know me. I am not certain that there is a God.Through philosophy, science, and nature my reason tells me that this world and every atom cannot be here by accident. If I choose to live my life around a theology that calls upon me to strive for the highest degree of my morality, why should such a decision be rebuked. Also, I do not understand why you said this,"there, is no need for one to explain the existence of the universe.". I am not sure what point you were trying to make with this line of thought.
Irrational? I find that comment rather strange. Is it irrational to follow ones faith and help the needy? Is it irrational to want to pray for your enemy and help them? Is it irrational to not lie, cheat, murder, and steal? Maybe so, but what a world it would be if we were all lost in irrationality.
Also, I did not know my words about not have enough faith for Atheism were a quote. I was speaking truthfully from experience.
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14 Jun 2014, 8:33 pm
Quote:
Love your neighbor, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and others - even if what you say was true, the moral message of the New Testament is still invaluable and world changing
Similar sentiments had been expressed earlier. And today there are perfectly nice people in China, Saudi Arabia, etc. No Jesus required at all. Human empathy developed first, not Jesus.
DentArthurDent
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14 Jun 2014, 9:48 pm
Sherlock
For the last time, it is not irrational to work altruistically, it is not irrational to use philosophy to work out a world view, it is irrational to put as a starting point God and then force your philosophy to fit this axiom. As has already been stated their are many examples of altruistic societal behaviour existing before the advent of the abrahamic religions, and altruistic behaviour is demonstrated in all kinds of species and is shown to be a evolutionary stable strategy in mathematical models. You seem to be asserting that there are objective morals and I would say you have no evidence for this. Morals change with the culture and they change within the culture in accordance with the current zeitgeist. The religious always fall back to objective morals in deference of their belief in god yet they cannot show that morals are objective. My comment that knowledge is moving to a point where god is not need to explain existence, means just that, it does not prove the non existence of god but it remove one of the absolutes of religious belief that there must have been a creator.
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Kraichgauer
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14 Jun 2014, 10:23 pm
simon_says wrote:
Quote:
Love your neighbor, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and others - even if what you say was true, the moral message of the New Testament is still invaluable and world changing
Similar sentiments had been expressed earlier. And today there are perfectly nice people in China, Saudi Arabia, etc. No Jesus required at all. Human empathy developed first, not Jesus.
Absolutely there are good people everywhere. But the fact remains, whole societies had been transformed for the better because of Christianity. I'll just assume you're of North European ancestry, as I am. Well, trust me, you would not have liked our Pre-Christian ancestors, as they were societies of hierarchies of violent men bent on committing more robbery and murder than their rivals. And that's not even mentioning the human sacrifice that was rampant.
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DentArthurDent
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15 Jun 2014, 3:55 am
Kraichgauer wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Quote:
Love your neighbor, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and others - even if what you say was true, the moral message of the New Testament is still invaluable and world changing
Similar sentiments had been expressed earlier. And today there are perfectly nice people in China, Saudi Arabia, etc. No Jesus required at all. Human empathy developed first, not Jesus.
Absolutely there are good people everywhere. But the fact remains, whole societies had been transformed for the better because of Christianity. I'll just assume you're of North European ancestry, as I am. Well, trust me, you would not have liked our Pre-Christian ancestors, as they were societies of hierarchies of violent men bent on committing more robbery and murder
than their rivals. And that's not even mentioning the human sacrifice that was rampant.
Yes western society has improved a great deal, however to fundamentally equate this to Christianity needs verification. Much death and destruction was wrought by the leaders of these societies after the advent and mass acceptance of Christianity, in fact much death and destruction was wrought upon these societies as a result of Christian monotheistic belief, I suspect Jews would have something to say on this matter.
Where is your evidence that monotheism brought beneficial moralistic transformation of these societies! and more importantly where is your evidence that the moral zeitgeist would not have changed without monotheism? If the religious want to claim there is objective morality it is up to them to demonstrate that this is true. If you want to claim "the fact remains, whole societies had been transformed for the better because of Christianity" then that requires very strong ]evidence to support it, otherwise it is just unsubstantiated, empty, rhetoric.
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Kraichgauer
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15 Jun 2014, 11:48 am
DentArthurDent wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Quote:
Love your neighbor, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and others - even if what you say was true, the moral message of the New Testament is still invaluable and world changing
Similar sentiments had been expressed earlier. And today there are perfectly nice people in China, Saudi Arabia, etc. No Jesus required at all. Human empathy developed first, not Jesus.
Absolutely there are good people everywhere. But the fact remains, whole societies had been transformed for the better because of Christianity. I'll just assume you're of North European ancestry, as I am. Well, trust me, you would not have liked our Pre-Christian ancestors, as they were societies of hierarchies of violent men bent on committing more robbery and murder
than their rivals. And that's not even mentioning the human sacrifice that was rampant.
Yes western society has improved a great deal, however to fundamentally equate this to Christianity needs verification. Much death and destruction was wrought by the leaders of these societies after the advent and mass acceptance of Christianity, in fact much death and destruction was wrought upon these societies as a result of Christian monotheistic belief, I suspect Jews would have something to say on this matter.
Where is your evidence that monotheism brought beneficial moralistic transformation of these societies! and more importantly where is your evidence that the moral zeitgeist would not have changed without monotheism? If the religious want to claim there is objective morality it is up to them to demonstrate that this is true. If you want to claim "the fact remains, whole societies had been transformed for the better because of Christianity" then that requires very strong ]evidence to support it, otherwise it is just unsubstantiated, empty, rhetoric.
Nothing unverifiable about it. Peoples began acting better with the establishment of Christianity. Unless you want to say that's some incredible coincidence.
And by the way, every progressive social movement, including the civil rights movement, and the LGBT rights movement (despite what conservatives may say) has been inspired by Christian principles of equality and love your neighbor.
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DentArthurDent
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15 Jun 2014, 3:17 pm
Once again show evidence, what you are doing is making statements which you are asking us to assume to be correct, demonstrate that prior to christianity there was no move towards civilization, or even that Christianity sped this up. So far you are just posting rhetoric.
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Last edited by DentArthurDent on 15 Jun 2014, 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
15 Jun 2014, 4:08 pm
MonsterGuy wrote:
We Muslims may have had a prophet who had sex with a 9 year old girl at age 53, armies of Muslims invading India, looting, taking slaves, and killing, (after the time of Muhammad) and women wearing niqabs and burqas, friendship with the opposite sex person said to be a sin by many, the Armenian Genocide, cutting off the hand for thievery (rarely), and Muhammad marrying a woman whose father and husband he killed, but here's what you have:
Old Testament: Full of genocide, war crimes, ordered by GOD.
An innocent man dying for humanity's sins.
Forced conversion of people to Christianity.
Inquisition.
Persecution of Jews.
Colonization and enslavement of indigenous peoples, and their annihalation.
Absolute monarchy as the norm.
Old Testament: Full of genocide, war crimes, ordered by GOD.
An innocent man dying for humanity's sins.
Forced conversion of people to Christianity.
Inquisition.
Persecution of Jews.
Colonization and enslavement of indigenous peoples, and their annihalation.
Absolute monarchy as the norm.
I didn't read all the comments, but wanted to answer this, eventho I am not very religious myself (I was raised Catholic, and one of my best friends is Muslim). It is important to understand that Christians live by Jesus' teachings, not the Old Testament' teachings, that's why, among other things, Christians don't stone people anymore.
Islam is also based on the Old Testament just as much as Christianism (you should know this, we have all the same prophets, including Jesus, except a few like Muhammad). In fact all 3 religious groups: Christians, Muslims, and Jews, and all 3 Holy books: Bible, Qur'an, and Torah, including sub groups of these religions - are all based on the same ancient writings.
And Jews were not persecuted by Christians, they were persecuted by a man (Hitler) who thought of himself as a Christian (or Catholic?), and other religions too like Japan who were allied with Hitler, a man who absolutely did not follow the teachings of Jesus, and they were helped/saved by people of other religions including Christians (Russians, Americans, etc). And Jews were persecuted just as much by Muslims, for example, there used to be many of them in Palestine but they had to leave due to this. Muslims have also conquered many countries and forced many people of other religions to become Muslims or die (Iran for example, were not Muslims at all to begin with, they were Zoroastrians, and there is still many citizens who are Zoroastrians, but they are considered 2nd class citizens and do not have all the same advantages as Muslim citizens). One man who was born a Muslim but tried to bring peace in the world was also persecuted by Muslims, and put on house arrest for the rest of his life, this man was Bahá'u'lláh.
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DentArthurDent
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15 Jun 2014, 4:39 pm
Shadi2 wrote:
And Jews were not persecuted by Christians, they were persecuted by a man (Hitler) who thought of himself as a Christian (or Catholic?), and other religions too like Japan who were allied with Hitler, a man who absolutely did not follow the teachings of Jesus, and they were helped/saved by people of other religions including Christians (Russians, Americans, etc).
OMG who taught you history. In contemporary forum parlance and by any standard you are not even wrong!! !! !! !! !! !!
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15 Jun 2014, 5:31 pm
DentArthurDent wrote:
Shadi2 wrote:
And Jews were not persecuted by Christians, they were persecuted by a man (Hitler) who thought of himself as a Christian (or Catholic?), and other religions too like Japan who were allied with Hitler, a man who absolutely did not follow the teachings of Jesus, and they were helped/saved by people of other religions including Christians (Russians, Americans, etc).
OMG who taught you history. In contemporary forum parlance and by any standard you are not even wrong!! !! !! !! !! !!
I don't even know what you are referring to exactly, people of many different religions have been persecuted in different countries at different times, Christians, Muslims, and Jews, and many other religions alike. Myself I was specifically referring to WW2, and the persecution of Jews by Nazi Germany, also to Haj Amin al-Husseini, Palestinian leader who was a "friend" of Hitler, and the persecution of Jews in general, in many countries.
I'm sorry if I didn't express myself correctly, yes Jews have been persecuted by Christians as well at some point (and Christians were also persecuted by Jews at some point), but I was referring to recent times, and like I said, specifically Hitler's Nazi Germany, and the allied forces (within which there was many Christians) who stopped him and helped Jews escape death camps.
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Kraichgauer
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15 Jun 2014, 10:16 pm
DentArthurDent wrote:
Once again show evidence, what you are doing is making statements which you are asking us to assume to be correct, demonstrate that prior to christianity there was no move towards civilization, or even that Christianity sped this up. So far you are just posting rhetoric.
I never denied there was morality before Christianity, but the fact remains, death in the Roman arena ended with Christianity, and bloody human sacrifice among northern tribes came to an end with acceptance of Christ's teachings.
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DentArthurDent
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15 Jun 2014, 11:31 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
Once again show evidence, what you are doing is making statements which you are asking us to assume to be correct, demonstrate that prior to christianity there was no move towards civilization, or even that Christianity sped this up. So far you are just posting rhetoric.
I never denied there was morality before Christianity, but the fact remains, death in the Roman arena ended with Christianity, and bloody human sacrifice among northern tribes came to an end with acceptance of Christ's teachings.
You keep saying these changes to our ethics are due entirely to the acceptance of Christianity, you use the term FACT, this requires evidence, I would suggest the journey away from barbarism was not some quick occurrence due to Christianity but rather something that was happening already and was a gradual process in our evolution. You are forgetting that evolution is not only physical but also behavioural and mathematical models show how certain behaviors are beneficial to survival check out Game Theory.
If your claim is true then things like the witch trials should never have happened yet it is estimated that around 100,000 people were killed during this period, by non other than christians, then we have the multitude of christian pograms against Jews and Muslims. I could go on with many more example which demonstrably show your argument to be on shaky ground.
Once again where is your evidence, yes it can be argued that christianity stopped the Roman Games, but that is ever so simplistic as it does not take into political and economic pressures on the games at the same time. I am not saying the rise of christianity had no input into our culture, it most certainly did, but to suggest that without it barbarism would continue is to ignore all other pathways for societies to change and it also ignores the history of many many barbarous act carried out over many centuries by the christian church.
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Kraichgauer
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16 Jun 2014, 12:16 am
DentArthurDent wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
Once again show evidence, what you are doing is making statements which you are asking us to assume to be correct, demonstrate that prior to christianity there was no move towards civilization, or even that Christianity sped this up. So far you are just posting rhetoric.
I never denied there was morality before Christianity, but the fact remains, death in the Roman arena ended with Christianity, and bloody human sacrifice among northern tribes came to an end with acceptance of Christ's teachings.
You keep saying these changes to our ethics are due entirely to the acceptance of Christianity, you use the term FACT, this requires evidence, I would suggest the journey away from barbarism was not some quick occurrence due to Christianity but rather something that was happening already and was a gradual process in our evolution. You are forgetting that evolution is not only physical but also behavioural and mathematical models show how certain behaviors are beneficial to survival check out Game Theory.
If your claim is true then things like the witch trials should never have happened yet it is estimated that around 100,000 people were killed during this period, by non other than christians, then we have the multitude of christian pograms against Jews and Muslims. I could go on with many more example which demonstrably show your argument to be on shaky ground.
Once again where is your evidence, yes it can be argued that christianity stopped the Roman Games, but that is ever so simplistic as it does not take into political and economic pressures on the games at the same time. I am not saying the rise of christianity had no input into our culture, it most certainly did, but to suggest that without it barbarism would continue is to ignore all other pathways for societies to change and it also ignores the history of many many barbarous act carried out over many centuries by the christian church.
Y'know, I'm certain your not going to get me to change my thinking, and I'm sure I'll never convince you, so I don't see any need to argue anymore.
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