Debunking the 'self made man' myth

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I graduated high school, and attempted college but dropped out due to mental issues interfering with my ability to complete school work and focus/concentrate in class. That and it really started looking like anything I'd want to pursue would be useless for actually increasing chances of employment....college seems more about social connections and what not more than getting an education to get a degree that you can then actually put back to use to pay back loans. Hopefully I won't need SSI forever but yeah considering I was going part time when I couldn't handle it I certainly am in no position to work....if I can improve my functioning I don't plan on wasting it trying to go back to college to get more debt.

That said the trouble is a lot of the poor are college graduates, however there are not enough jobs available in fields they studied...and a lot of entry level jobs will turn them down for being 'over-qualified', lots of people around my age are facing that I think not sure if that is your exact situation sounds sort of like it though. I feel like most people who started college around the time I did where quite mislead and now stuck with a sh*t ton of debt.

Nobody earns there intelligence. That's a matter of winning the genetic lottery. Hard work is a factor of success. Intelligence is a factor of success. You only have control over some things.

I'd say that half of what people get is what they earn. The other half is just survival of the fittest. Getting what you earn is justice. Survival of the fittest isn't. It's just the way the world works.

Nobody earns everything that they have but nothing is 100% unearned either.

I think people are over-educated these days. Higher and higher degrees are becoming necessary to find employment ... sometimes I think the schools and employers are in on it together.

The rich caused the recession and the transfer of wealth from us (the middle class and poor) to them. I call that theft.

And perhaps the greatest pitfall of this is that culture demands more specialization in skills to make the machine of culture run.

Often one spends what SEEMS A lifetime in college in A highly specialized field of training and never gets to use it in the real world, and truly while my actual college education per three degrees was little contribution to the living I earned, most importantly, I had a diverse background in many fields of study, to make the most important contribution to life, in simply being a balanced human being, understanding that art and science are both required for happiness in life.

And to truly sing life true, it's extremely hard to do, without a balance of art and science in both mind and spirit of living life.

These are not the things, that school normally teaches, but one who seeks can most definitely still find balanced truth in life, even now if they never go to college, it's all ON the Internet, for those who do not give up on finding truth in their life, for the best REAL LIFE POSSIBLE, IN EVERYDAY LIFE.

So in spite of you knowing for a fact that that claim didn't stick to Raptor, because he already explained himself, you would like to proceed with your idea and say that "conservatives" do this? Repeating claims ad nauseum doesn't establish them, I think we've got it, you've said this a number of times already on WP. Why not come up with something fresh and relevant? You're not debating with straw men, you're debating with raptors and gun toting libertarians, hahahaha.

"Master of Science - Electrical Engineering"

I thought at first to take English Lit or History of Whatever, but an informal survey of graduates in these fields led me to make the effort and earn a STEM degree.

Science
Technology
Engineering
Maths

The only time I was homeless was after a "Perfect Storm" of medical issues, layoffs and a divorce.

The only time I was unemployed since then was after a "Downsizing" by a company that went bankrupt 6 months later for lack of ...



... wait for it ....



... wait for it ...



... a sufficiently-skilled engineering staff!

They tried to hire me back on a "deferred" salary increase, but I already had another job that paid about 8% more than what they were offering. I did manage to score some of their research and test equipment at the auction, but that's the last time I ever dealt with them.

Anyway, the current demand is for STEM and medical graduates, with veteran status being a plus.

Kraichgauer believes that since he is as blindly partisan as he is that all people are equally as blindly partizan.
I don't know how many times Ive said that I have no issue with a social safety net as long as they don't use it as a hammock.
It's obviously the ones that use (i.e. abuse) it as a hammock that are the ones that have a beef with me using that term....

Last edited by Raptor on 29 Oct 2014, 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think your error is in assuming that people's pursuits of power, status, and wealth are somehow artifacts of "the system" and not ingrained traits of humanity; unless you're proposing brainwashing on a massive scale or some sort of creepy selective breeding program, I don't think those impulses can be wished away by a new system. Marx tried, and look how well that turned out.

If they are ingrained traits of humanity, then why are there humans who reject those things, and a system based on the pursuit of them? And if some humans can reject that way of existence why wouldn't humans in general be able to open their minds to perhaps different ways of doing things? But yes I think the system heavily encourages those pursuits far beyond any natural human traits do....so perhaps if the system did not encourage that so much it would lead to people considering alternatives.

It's likely it'll never happen, certainly not in my life time.....so what else is there to do than than say 'screw it' and avoid participating too much in the current society...and all the stuff the masses are buying into. Maybe if enough people just become apathetic towards the system and this society it would have to change since no one would want to bother keeping it running.

But then um.... wouldn't we like, um...... starve? How many of you guys have ever lived on a farm? Grown any food? Slaughtered an animal? Can you make your own rope? Building supplies? Can you protect yourselves?

If no one strove towards any level of oversight, any level of economic excellence, then who would keep people from killing each other? And feed everyone? What would happen if there was a drought, hurricane, earthquake, flood, volcanic explosion, or famine?

I did not suggest going back to having no modern technology or anything like that, more doing a better job at using and distributing resources.....so you don't have someone with more money they could spend in 10 life times as well as people who can barely afford to not starve at the same time. Problem is wasteful society, reap non-renewable resources and doing a good job of wasting anything that is available. If done right everyone would have access to food, water and necessities of life, but not with the current system...but I get it, its over peoples heads because who would even want to rationalize that maybe the psedo-survival of the fittest behavior is not necessary due to the abundance of resources on this planet if people weren't to stupid to use them right.

Also there would be some organization, just not a monetary system, so no need to strive for economic excellence there'd still be a society of sorts....just not one with class division, the attitude of having to make it to the stop even if it means screwing others over and all the BS that goes along with it. But then it might resemble how communism is supposed to look.

Either way I don't have all the answers that is as far as I have gotten as to coming up with a description of what I'd see as a better system....either way the system we do have is not sustainable so something has to change or its going to collapse and there will be much chaos and violence likely but that is probably more likely than smoothly moving to a more sustainable system/society.

I do not get what that picture is supposed to imply unless its a symbolic representation of what is going to happen to this system if it continues functioning as it does of course than it makes sense. Also do not get the 'but then um...wouldn't we like, um starve?' bit.....I got the question just not why you typed it in such a horrendous manner.

What you're thinking of is a better world. It's not just a better system. I believe that human nature is the cause of these problems.

And no not all people are like this but with so many people there are bound to be people who think in terms of "screw others". Those are the people who are actually going to try to accumulate vast and unnecessary wealth. Not all of them are going to succeed but they're the only ones who are going to try.

The world would be a better place if people were motivated simultaneously by self-interest and other people's interests.My life is important and so is yours. My needs and your needs are both of equal concern. That should be the attitude. It's ridiculous that even when it costs you next to nothing to help someone people still refuse. It makes perfect sense that someone isn't going to help someone if the cost to themselves is greater than the benefit to someone else. I wouldn't help someone if the cost to myself was greater than the benefit. It doesn't make sense that people won't help others at almost no cost to themselves with the attitude "it's not my problem". When there's a problem that can easily be solved at an extremely low cost I have no clue why people just ignore it.

A new system probably won't change things. There needs to be a global shift in attitudes.

That might not be possible without mass brainwashing as someone else has already said. The person meant it sarcastically. It's funny that sometimes I wonder if mass brainwashing would actually do more good than harm. It's totally unethical so I'm not advocating for it by any means I'm just wondering if it would actually be beneficial to this world.

Without a fundamental change in human nature there is no system that can create this ideal world. The people that make up the system need to change. A new system can't solve things without a global shift in peoples' attitudes and values.

Good points, I think it is very true a shift in attitude would be necessary you are right that a change of system alone would not really fix the issue....but then how do you cause a global shift in attitude? Maybe brainwashing wouldn't be the answer since as you say it is unethical and well it would be fake if people where just essentially programmed....but perhaps influence, but then people have been trying to influence positive change in the world for a very long time to no avail a lot of times it would seem.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khS-sQ1KHFE[/youtube]
I don't think humans are angels. But it is silly to say our behaviour is fixed regardless of circumstances. In fact its dangerous. This is exactly the attitude rulers want from a population.

The current system is sustained through brainwashing.

Last edited by RushKing on 30 Oct 2014, 3:44 pm, edited 4 times in total.

And not all of us are capable of attaining these skills. There has to be something for the less brainy people to do. Lack of intelligence doesn't mean lack of heart.



I was never very good at math and science. Always stuck to the humanities. I won the high school history award back in '88.