Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Been thinking about what happened in France...

Page 6 of 14 [ 213 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 14  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

09 Jan 2015, 4:02 pm

Adamantium wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
The politician that wants to shush us from talking about the magazine is doing EXACTLY what people who are against freedom of speech are trying to do!! Isn't that obvious?


The ignorance here is almost beyond belief.

The speaker is NOT a politician. He is a very famous writer and public intellectual.

The people at Charlie Hebdo were anti-racists, and for multiculturalism.

They were against respect for bull from any political quarter or religion.

It's sad that you have to keep inventing nonsense about these people in order to justify putting the blame on them.

I haven't put the blame for the actual terrorism on anyone but the terrorists. I put the blame for the insults on the people who buy the insults and that's entirely appropriate.

Okay, so I thought he was a French politician...however, what I say still rings true. Him saying we should not express opinion about the content of Charlie Hebdo is censorship which this magazine seems to be against so why expect it from the public? You can't have it both ways. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If they can publish whatever they want in their magazine, anyone who reads it can share their thoughts on it as well. It's a two way street. We are all symbiotic here and none of us live in a vacuum. It is actually anti intellectual to even suggest we as the public cannot have an opinion on the content of a magazine...



Adamantium
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2013
Age: 1025
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,863
Location: Erehwon

09 Jan 2015, 4:07 pm

The dead people were personal friends of his and he is pissed at people like you for totally unjustifiably calling his friends racist.

It's not so hard to understand.

You are free to say whatever nonsense you want about Charb and Honore and the others, and Levy is free to call what you have said an obscenity.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

09 Jan 2015, 4:13 pm

Adamantium wrote:
The dead people were personal friends of his and he is pissed at people like you for totally unjustifiably calling his friends racist.

It's not so hard to understand.

You are free to say whatever nonsense you want about Charb and Honore and the others, and Levy is free to call what you have said an obscenity.

I simply posted some of what I saw of Charlie Hebdo could be perceived as racist that is NOT saying the cartoonists are. Why is it so hard to separate the content and just comment on it? I have no problem doing that. I comment on what I see them publish, not their personalities or beliefs and I have the right to comment on it. Why is my right to express my opinion suspect when we are talking about freedom of speech?



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

09 Jan 2015, 4:14 pm

Adamantium wrote:
The dead people were personal friends of his and he is pissed at people like you for totally unjustifiably calling his friends racist.

It's not so hard to understand.

You are free to say whatever nonsense you want about Charb and Honore and the others, and Levy is free to call what you have said an obscenity.

I simply posted some of what I saw of Charlie Hebdo could be perceived as racist that is NOT saying the cartoonists are. Why is it so hard to separate the content and just comment on it? I have no problem doing that. I comment on what I see them publish, not their personalities or beliefs and I have the right to comment on it. Why is my right to express my opinion suspect when we are talking about freedom of speech?



andrethemoogle
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,254
Location: Sol System

09 Jan 2015, 4:30 pm

I don't see how it's racist, considering Islam is not a race. Also, as we keep saying, they did this to MANY religions, so it's not just a singular incident.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

09 Jan 2015, 5:27 pm

andrethemoogle wrote:
I don't see how it's racist, considering Islam is not a race. Also, as we keep saying, they did this to MANY religions, so it's not just a singular incident.



Racist against Muslims. Muslims aren't technically a race but you can sorta think of them in that term.

Btw I am not defending Islam I think Sharia law is seriously something that should be tossed way back into antiquity where it belongs and if Muslims cannot handle living in a democracy, they should go back to living under the Sharia law wherever that might be but quit trying to bring it to the West. I do not champion backward thinking.



andrethemoogle
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,254
Location: Sol System

09 Jan 2015, 5:38 pm

Again, they were insulting all religions. The term you are looking for is "prejudice against Muslims".

And again, why should they exempt one? All religions are fair grounds for criticism. If you're excluding one, that's horses**t. That's like how Hollywood censors critics of Scientology (which isn't even a religion, it's a bloody cult). Sorry, but just because you're a Muslim doesn't mean you get special treatment and can't be made fun of. It's a religion, you choose to be of the faith, you're grounds for criticism (not saying you, just "you" as in general)



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

09 Jan 2015, 5:41 pm

andrethemoogle wrote:
I don't see how it's racist, considering Islam is not a race.

Firstly, race is a social construct. People have arbitrarily moved groups between races for the last few centuries, giving or denying them white privilege. Whilst Islam obviously is not a race, Muslims might be - just as Jews have been considered a race or races in some contexts.

Secondly, most Muslims, even in the West, are non-white. Attacks on them can therefore be racially motivated - that is, motivated by their non-whiteness.

I don't think the cartoons are in any way racist or Islamophobic, but it's perfectly possible for attacks on Islam to be racist.



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

09 Jan 2015, 5:42 pm

Satire is a tradition which must not be trampled upon.

Charlie Hebdo will see that the tradition remains alive!



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

09 Jan 2015, 5:47 pm

andrethemoogle wrote:
Again, they were insulting all religions. The term you are looking for is "prejudice against Muslims".

And again, why should they exempt one? All religions are fair grounds for criticism. If you're excluding one, that's horses**t. That's like how Hollywood censors critics of Scientology (which isn't even a religion, it's a bloody cult). Sorry, but just because you're a Muslim doesn't mean you get special treatment and can't be made fun of. It's a religion, you choose to be of the faith, you're grounds for criticism (not saying you, just "you" as in general)

See, I don't mind if you call Scientology a cult, criticize Sharia Law and the brutal practices of Sunnis in Saudi Arabia, pointing out how they behead people in the center of Mecca in front of everyone like the Romans did in the arena thousands of years ago.
I have no problem with people pointing out how certain members of the Catholic clergy have ignored criminal pedophiles for hundreds of years at the expense of countless victims.
Go ahead and bring to light how fanatically deranged Jim Jones was or how the Catholics, in some cases, collaborated during the Holocaust or that Jewish Defense Forces have crossed the line a few times. I will listen or read what you have to say about Moses and how he might have been delusional and was a genocidal maniac, if indeed he was.
See this is freedom of speech to me, being able to discuss these things.



Jules_Bonnot_1912
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 146
Location: location location .... that's what it's all about

09 Jan 2015, 5:47 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Btw I am not defending Islam I think Sharia law is seriously something that should be tossed way back into antiquity where it belongs and if Muslims cannot handle living in a democracy, they should go back to living under the Sharia law wherever that might be but quit trying to bring it to the West. I do not champion backward thinking.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree. Telling them to go back isn't an option ... THAT is why so many young muslims feel detached from their society. They grew up here, but still aren't accepted. That's one of the main reasons they turn towards IS and Al-Qaida ...

I don't know if you know Dyab Abou JahJah ... google for him and read what he says about what happened. I don't totally agree with him, but he had some damn good points ...


_________________
I'm REALLY good in bed: I stay on my side and rarely steal the covers ...


ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

09 Jan 2015, 5:52 pm

Jules_Bonnot_1912 wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Btw I am not defending Islam I think Sharia law is seriously something that should be tossed way back into antiquity where it belongs and if Muslims cannot handle living in a democracy, they should go back to living under the Sharia law wherever that might be but quit trying to bring it to the West. I do not champion backward thinking.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree. Telling them to go back isn't an option ... THAT is why so many young muslims feel detached from their society. They grew up here, but still aren't accepted. That's one of the main reasons they turn towards IS and Al-Qaida ...

I don't know if you know Dyab Abou JahJah ... google for him and read what he says about what happened. I don't totally agree with him, but he had some damn good points ...

What I don't understand is why they cannot feel accepted in the culture they grew up in? What is it they are expecting, exactly? They will be accepted as much as they wish to blend in with others. If they don't want to blend in, they will stick out. It's like that with everyone. Still doesn't excuse joining the fanatics. I think it's a huge mistake to feel disgruntled and then turn to these organizations that support these Jihads. Wouldn't it be better to try to fit into the culture you grew up in, maybe try to figure out how to do that if you are unhappy?



Jules_Bonnot_1912
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 146
Location: location location .... that's what it's all about

09 Jan 2015, 5:53 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
See this is freedom of speech to me, being able to discuss these things.

You're right. But when there's a stalemate, humor can help to jug things ... it may offend some people. But it also gives way to discuss things and make people aware. So I do think that Charlie Hebdo did have an important function, even if you don't like the content ...


_________________
I'm REALLY good in bed: I stay on my side and rarely steal the covers ...


Jules_Bonnot_1912
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 146
Location: location location .... that's what it's all about

09 Jan 2015, 5:56 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
What I don't understand is why they cannot feel accepted in the culture they grew up in? What is it they are expecting, exactly? They will be accepted as much as they wish to blend in with others. If they don't want to blend in, they will stick out. It's like that with everyone. Still doesn't excuse joining the fanatics. I think it's a huge mistake to feel disgruntled and then turn to these organizations that support these Jihads. Wouldn't it be better to try to fit into the culture you grew up in, maybe try to figure out how to do that if you are unhappy?

But what if that culture won't accept you? THAT is what's happening ... these youths not getting accepted. Or actually getting accepted (deceived) by extremists ... letting them play their role of victim (and promising them some heroism and virgins).


_________________
I'm REALLY good in bed: I stay on my side and rarely steal the covers ...


ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

09 Jan 2015, 5:59 pm

Jules_Bonnot_1912 wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
What I don't understand is why they cannot feel accepted in the culture they grew up in? What is it they are expecting, exactly? They will be accepted as much as they wish to blend in with others. If they don't want to blend in, they will stick out. It's like that with everyone. Still doesn't excuse joining the fanatics. I think it's a huge mistake to feel disgruntled and then turn to these organizations that support these Jihads. Wouldn't it be better to try to fit into the culture you grew up in, maybe try to figure out how to do that if you are unhappy?

But what if that culture won't accept you? THAT is what's happening ... these youths not getting accepted. Or actually getting accepted (deceived) by extremists ... letting them play their role of victim (and promising them some heroism and virgins).

They can become accepted if they learn the skills that will get others to like them, anyone can. It's easier for them than it is for their parents.



Jules_Bonnot_1912
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 146
Location: location location .... that's what it's all about

09 Jan 2015, 6:05 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
They can become accepted if they learn the skills that will get others to like them, anyone can. It's easier for them than it is for their parents.

You have no idea how they get shut out ... for instance: if they try to apply for a job and the applicant tells his/her Arab-sounding name, they don't stand a chance ... It's not blatant racism, but the latent racism!

And about their parents: no it isn't. Those people got 'accepted' (tolerated) because they were only supposed to return to their country of origin once the work was done. But they actually adepted more ... they are also puzzled why there more nikabs/burkas in the streets. They didn't wear them ...


_________________
I'm REALLY good in bed: I stay on my side and rarely steal the covers ...