Belief of Magic, Magik, Majic, Majik?

Post Reply New Topic

any cake is only as good as the recipe. Ya' can't blame the cake if the recipe is wrong. If it were chemistry and a reagent was missing, or in the wrong quantity, you can hardly expect the experiment to work. I would question your sources, personally.

Merle

Alright then, why dont YOU show me personally what this stuff can REALLY Do! I dare Ya! I'd like to see a PHYSICAL DEMONSTRATION of magick in action. You really have NO cause to blame me for being cynical about something like this when I havent personally witnessed it. Please Remember that:



1) Extraordinary Claims Require Extraodinary Evidence

2) The Burden of Proof is on the Person(s) making the claim



If you cant meet up with me than post a video on youtube and let the skeptics scrutinize it.

wow,Haliphron, chill, huh?
You are the only person making claims and your claim is that is doesn't work.
I certainly did not make any claims of any magical powers and since when is a youtube video proof of anything but excellent photo-shop skills? Demanding extraordinary evidence of magic of the universe is useless, as it does not respond to threats and demands. It exists in a realm where the ego necessary to be goaded and taunted does not exist (and thank goodness!)

I am curious, though. What proof would you accept, anyway?

Merle

An In Vivo Demonstration. By that I mean you show me IN PERSON what magic can really do.BTY,FYI, Comparing Magic to chemistry is pretty ignorant. Chemistry stands up to the scientific method and produces repeatable results which are VERY EASY to get right if you follow the directions precisely. Magic does NOT give precise directions to follow and on the rare occasion that it does, everytime Ive tried it Ive gotten the same result: a big Fat Nothing.



I 2nd That; and I hope you dont mind me quotting you on it.

Not at all.

It is irksome that just because I say "Evidence, Please" a lot, that the person I say it to never assumes that (1) I've investigated similar claims, and found them all bogus; (2) I keep informed of the latest developments in both science and pseudo-science; and (3) that I would be absolutely thrilled if someone could successfully demonstrate a paranormal ability, or perform a miracle in my presence. I may even be even inclined to provide for further study of the ability or phenomenon.

But, no, if paranormal events actually occur, the only reasons that I've never witnessed one myself is because those self-proclaimed 'Experts in the Paranormal' are either (1) too lazy and selfish to give a real demonstration; (2) know they'll be outted as frauds; or (3) have not the courage of thier convictions.

Thus, my basic challeng is "Put up, or shut up" == Either demonstrate a paranormal ability or phenomenon, or get used to being called a liar.

I see that my challenge has so far gone unmet. It seems that someone is either afraid of what unknown mysteries their answers may reveal; or they do know what the answers will reveal, and also know that not only will their little clown parade be rained upon, but that it will be washed out to sea in the subsequent flash flood!

Guess what Merle, you have just proven my point!! CONGRATULATIONS!
As for that the above statement I quoted, just exactly HOW far down underground have you been?
Furthermore, "As above, so below" only applies when you are in outer space. Here on earth, to disprove that particular statement all you need is a shovel.

BTW Fnord, I think reason #2 you gave in the second paragraph is the Real reason self-professed "experts" in paranormal refuse to demonstrate their claims. They KNOW they'll be regarded as frauds and so they try to manipulate people into thinking their claims are not falsifiable["it only works if you believe in it" or "you just didnt do it the right way"].

Last edited by Haliphron on 28 Jul 2008, 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Regardless of your contempt and sarcasm, I will answer you. I was once that bad off myself.

First, the Bible is not the complete and inerrant Word of God; Holy Spirit is. He authored many documents that became the Bible (book of books). That's not the end of the Holy Spirit's pronouncements. He gives Christians who ask gifts of Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom, Prophecy, Discerning of Spirits, and the combo gift of tongues & interpretation. These are all information gifts. That doesn't mean the Bible is chopped liver.

The Bible was compiled by a committee from various writings that were popular among the Christians around 260 A.D. These writings refer to writings that have been lost. They refer to some writings that show only some inspiration and are therefore excluded. The counterfeit writings by Judaizers and pagans were totally out of character with the rest of the writings and were excluded. Second Peter almost didn't make it.

Once codified, the Bible was faithfully copied with very little mistakes until the last century. There was an attempt by Humanists to come up with "translations" that were spun toward their philosophy. The Reader's Digest came up with a
'condensed" version of the Bible. Translators have had their own theological axes to grind and slightly spun the text in their favor. God has not defended the Bible from any of these twistings, because it is the Holy Spirit who is our source of Truth.

I say that all the original scriptures are inspired of God the Holy Spirit. I've got my Greek New Testament to verify the translations. By convention, the guidance I get from the Holy Spirit must not contradict the Bible's inspiration to make sure I'm not getting misled.
----
As an Aspergers, I know pi = 3.14159265 off the top of my head. I had to know it back in the days when slide rules were high tech. I'm a retired professional engineer intern with two bachelors.

My turn; is hydrogen a gas or a metal?

But Pi = 3 according to the Bible.

One need not be a 'Secular Humanist' to be able to read and understand the Bible; yet it takes untold numbers of Biblical scholars thousands of years to reach the current 'level of agreement' (which is a misnnomer, to say the least).

2Ch 4:2 - “Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.”

Circumference = 30 cubits.
Diameter = 10 cubits.
Biblical Pi = 3.

1Co 14:33 - "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

(However, Gen 11:8-9 states, "So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth.")

The real value of Pi, which can be demonstrated by anyone in possession of a straightedge with a marked scale and a compass divider, is 'a little more' than 3.14, the fractional portion of which can be carried out indefinitely.

So, if God is not the author of confusion, and the Biblical value of Pi is incorrect, then who really wrote (or 'inspired') the Bible?

If a part of the Bible is demonstrated to be in error, then what of the other parts?

If we can not trust the Bible, then what is left to demonstrate the existance of God?

What is actually going on when someone claims to be 'inspired' by the 'Holy Spirit'?

How can anyone be certain of someone's claim that they to speak with the authority of God?

No wonder there is so much fraud and deception in the Christian churches.


BTW: π = 3.1415926535897932384626433832795... (32 decimal places, as determined by Euler's method).

The value of 22 ÷ 7 = 3.1428571428571428571428571428571... ~3.142 (Good for 3 decimal places).

And the value of 355 ÷ 113 = 3.1415929203539823008849557522124... ~3.141593 (Single-Precision; good for 6 decimal places).

Last edited by Fnord on 28 Jul 2008, 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[quote="TimT] Once codified, the Bible was faithfully copied with very little mistakes until the last century. There was an attempt by Humanists to come up with "translations" that were spun toward their philosophy. The Reader's Digest came up with a
'condensed" version of the Bible. Translators have had their own theological axes to grind and slightly spun the text in their favor. God has not defended the Bible from any of these twistings, because it is the Holy Spirit who is our source of Truth.

My turn; is hydrogen a gas or a metal?[/quote]

Tim, I'll grant you that those who copied the books of the Bible did their VERY best to copy it as perfectly as possible, because they were devoted heart and soul to the task, and many created not just valuable copies of the Holy Scriptures, but also some of the most gorgeous works of art I have ever seen. However, having observed MANY calligraphers at their work, I know how difficult it is to perfectly copy a text. No matter how hard they try, it is an incredibly rare event that a page comes out without any mistakes, regardless of their attention to detail and their dedication to the work. (I do reproduction medieval illumination as a hobby.) With the advent of the Gutenburg printing press, the mistakes continued, because every letter, bit of punctuaton, and space had to be set by hand, frequently by persons who could not read well. This led to some interesting mistakes, including one famous one called the "Sinner's Bible" in which one of the Ten Commandments stated "Thou shalt commit adultery."

Also consider that the first translations of the Bible, such as Wycliff's, while not commonly seen today, were used in the King James translation, as was the Vulgate, which was the Latin translation of the Bible made under the supervision of Saint Jerome from the original languages using the texts he had available at the time. The same copies of the originals were also used. While the King James is beautifully poetic, and I will never say it has no value -- its language is fabulous and its historical value immense -- I will point out that it was a translation of several different translations commanded by a king with his own political agenda (just as much as any modern translation could have a political agenda, if not more so, considering that we ARE talking about a king who was trying to consolidate his reign here). Meanwhile, older copies of the original language texts with fewer errors in them have since been found, English has changed significantly since the time of King James, and any translation has its problems -- particularly with figurative language. Can you imagine how hard it is to translate "busy as a one-armed paper hanger" or "nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs" into another language? Any translators in the room?

Also, I've never heard a definition of secular humanist that didn't sound paranoid. Can you help me out on that one?

Hydrogen: gas or metal? According to the periodic table, yes. Depends on the molecular construct to determine the behavior of the element. (Not bad for a historian?)

Judith

Yes.

Hi, Fnord. I took the liberty of numbering your statements in order to reply to them more clearly, as you asked so many questions.

1. Most of the books of the Old Testament were passed down as an oral tradition for approximately 1500 years. They were written down during the Babylonian captivity when so many of the traditions of the Jewish faith were being lost as a result of the people being assimilated into Babylonian culture. The priests and elders worried that the traditions they had so long cherished would be lost. Because of this long oral tradition, the stories were simplified and have been codified to make memorization easier. Also, when the Kingdom of Israel split into the Kindom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah, the two developed separate religious traditions. Israel no longer had Jerusalem within its political boundaries, so religious "irregularities" crept into the tradion that were not found in the Judean mythologic history. When the Torah was assembled, these irregularities were included in places where the traditions could not be reconciled. Thus, we have two creation stories in Genesis 1-3.

OK, now I've handled the history of how some of the confusions crept in. Now for the difference between inspiration and writing. Almost all of the members of my maternal family write in some fashion or other. My aunt is a poet and novelist, my uncle is a musician, my mother is a poet, my grandmother writes short stories, etc. They write, but the content "bubbles up from nowhere" they say. It wasn't there before, then it simply appeared, like Athena leaping full-grown from the head of Zeus. The word "inspire" means to "breathe in." An infallible God inspired in the mind of fallible human beings the words and the experiences, but humans are imperfect (oh, boy, am I imperfect!) and didn't understand it completely and wrote it down imperfectly. A little clearer than mud now?

2. The Bible is simply the story of God's love for a broken world and how He has reached out to us to heal it. Picking it apart for miniscule errors and trying to make it perfect history misses the point entirely. If an allegory is proved to have an inconstancy in it, is the whole thing no longer an acceptable story to teach its point? Both extremes -- fundamentalism and dismissal miss the purpose of the whole. Seek the core of the matter, instead, regardless of what religion you embrace.

3. The evidence to demonstrate the existence of God is the fact that people's lives have been made whole through their faith. Look at the world around you and see the beauty. If we take care of this world, it will provide for the needs of every creature upon it, in glorious balance. Evolution, yes. Loving creator? Why not? It once troubled me that God could not be "measured" because I am a serious skeptic. A major serious skeptic. Tell me your house it haunted. I want the evidence. Measurable evidence. Not just some photos of dust specks. But when I keep myself "right side up" in my faith, I feel calmer, more measured and balanced in my life, even when everything else goes to pot. That may not be evidence for you, but it has worked for me for a long time.

4. "Inspired" -- Well, sad to say, we're all imperfect, so sometimes folks are being fed a line of hooey, sometimes the person is believing his own imagination, and sometimes something amazing has happened. I can't explain it, but there have been times when I just "felt" I needed to call a friend, only to find out that she REALLY needed someone to talk to and didn't know who to call. I would never have had the timing right on my own, but somehow the right time was just THERE. I guess it would work differently for different people, as we are all individuals. It would be great to be able to explain it clearly.

5. Does someone speak with the authority of God? My maternal Grandfather was a minister, and he answered that question for me when I was younger. It was good advice then, so I'll give it to you now. First, listen to what they say. Does it disagree in ANY WAY with the Holy Scripture? Does it tell you to do anything illegal, immoral, or unethical? If so, then RUN, don't walk, away. Second, they may talk a great line, but what does their walk say? How do they LIVE? Do they live in a mansion while people on Social Security are encouraged to send in their fixed incomes? Do they personally work for the good of the poor, the ill, or the unfortunate? Do they walk their talk? Neither of these assumes a snap judgement, although many times you can see quite quickly that someone is a quack.

Another interesting method I've seen for separating wheat from chaff (although it does come from someone in the pagan community, oddly enough) is the Bonewits Cult Evaluator. You might want to check that out, if it can still be found on the web.

6. Humans are imperfect. There is fraud and deception in EVERY human institution, not just churches. Just check out our government for a wonderful (?!) example. There is a true saying about churches. "If you find a perfect church, don't join it. You'd just mess it up." Usually, this is joked about in response to people who say that they won't join a church until they find one without hypocrites. Frankly, every one of us screws it up sometimes, whether we mean to or not. The difference in whether you really believe or you don't is what you do after you screw up.

Judith

Alright ... fair enough, Judith.

Whenever someone says "I have God's own authority, so put down that Bible and listen to me! I will tell you everything you need to know..." my inner cult alarm goes off. Same for those who claim that their interpretation of the Bible, or their favorite version of the Bible, is The Only True Way. As for seeing images of Jesus, Mary, and any other Biblical persons on a piece of toast, all I can say is "Looks delicious; pass the marmalade!"

The "Advanced Bonewit's Cult Danger Evaluation Frame" can be found through >THIS LINK<. It's been a useful tool for me when encountering both atheist trolls and fundamentalist bullies on the Internet

The same can be said of today's newspaper. It refers to "sunrise" and "sunset". This is false because it is the planet that moves and not the sun. It contains a horoscope which is bogus. Can we trust anything that is in the newspaper if it is so false? This is where hypercriticism takes you. The same deconstruction can be done with Richard Dawkin's books, so it really means nothing.

The book of Chronicles is a historical document, not a construction document. It is approximately correct, even so. Today's newspapers give "close enough" estimates of length and time, too.

As for "confusion," yes God cursed humanity by multiplying their languages. But God is not speaking out of both sides of his mouth, confusing people. If you need any further help in understanding these statements, please contact me.
I am sure this flummoxes you, since your world view doesn't have room for any spiritual realm or spirit beings. Your loss.