My recent conversion to Christianity
19 Apr 2016, 7:14 pm
Nothing you could say could tear me away from my God
Nothing you could do 'cause I'm stuck like glue to my God.
I'm sticking to my guy like a stamp to a letter,
Like birds of a feather we stick together,
I'm tellin' you from the start I can't be torn apart from my God.
My creative Son in law wrote that parody before he saw that Whoopee Gokdberg movie that featured that revised My Guy.
Matthews
‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only him.
My family including wonderful wife/helpmate - boss - co workers - few friends love/ like me inspire of my flaws.
They are much smarter than this "Reader and Righter".
me. Not that kind of doctor.
_________________
Still too old to know it all
missed one spot to put in 
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,241
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
19 Apr 2016, 10:26 pm
BaalChatzaf wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
^^^
The whole of Christian doctrine from the very beginning is based on Christ acting as mankind's substitute by living the law perfectly, but suffering under it's punishment. As I fancy myself a Christian, it's my belief system.
The whole of Christian doctrine from the very beginning is based on Christ acting as mankind's substitute by living the law perfectly, but suffering under it's punishment. As I fancy myself a Christian, it's my belief system.
Under Jewish Law (halacha) a person cannot fulfill an obligation on him vicariously. Each person bears the burden of his own mistakes or sins. There are also means of atonement available to each person to deal with his sins. If the atonement is sincere and the sinning person changes his ways, then it is assumed G-D forgives him.
Under the Christian doctrine of Original Sin, no act performed by a person can lift the burden of Adam's sin which presumabley God lays on everyone at birth or ensoulment. Some God that is! Who would want to worship a monster like that?
Actually, God doesn't hold original sin against all people, as Christ's death for humanity's atonement is retroactive for even people before Christ's time. Not such a monster after all.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
19 Apr 2016, 10:29 pm
GnosticBishop wrote:
Maple78 wrote:
There are different ways of viewing salvation (see an example below). As for how we seemingly vicariously partake of Christ's accomplishments, read "On the Incarnation" to understand how the theory goes (regardless of whether you believe it or not). Basically, the belief goes that we all inherited the effects of sin by being descended from Adam,
Please compare what you said to these quotes.
Are they all wrong and do you think your children should be held responsible for what you do?
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
Regards
DL
Guess what. Theology is a complicated topic. I know it looks like a book, but the Bible is not just a book. It's actually a library of books. It's a set of books written by many authors in many different languages in very different time periods and social contexts.
If there's one thing that atheist and authoritarian conservative fundamentalist Christians can agree on it's that God is kind of a jerk and the Bible says a lot of outrageous stuff that piss off liberals. The chief difference being that the authoritarian fundamentalist Christians look on that as a good thing and the atheist looks on that as a reason to reject the story as being logically inconsistent and externally inconsistent with modern sensibilities.
Ultimately no matter what you accept you have to think for yourself. We bring something to the Bible with us, our cultural upbringing, our experiences, centuries of tradition, a long legacy of folks studying this historic document, in the social context of our times. We have to also consider that the people who wrote the Bible brought their own things to the table. Reading the Bible means being in dialogue with it.
There are many different perspectives on how the Bible is to be both written and how it is to be read. I for one am definitely not a biblical literalist. I also do not believe that God dictated the specific words. Nor do I believe the ludicrous notion that the King James version is the most authoritative version of the Bible.
As for the death and Resurrection Jesus Christ and how it relates to our Salvation. This is one of the first things that I came to learn as I came to accept Christianity. There is not merely one perspective on how this whole thing worked. There seem to be numerous theories on exactly how the death of Christ redeemed us. There is a lot to take away from it. When I asked for I'm full of questions about it I got many different answers. It looks like people have been debating this for a very long time and they will continue to do so. My coming to the faith was marked by my finding my own take away from His Martyrdom something that had long confused me.
It does seem like a non sequitur doesn't it? What actually sparked my takeaway of it was discovering gnosticism. Well I have mixed feelings about it, gnosticism offers even more perspective. Depending on the Gnostic View, one view is that the world that we live in is an illusion. The world around us as a prison and is itself Fallen. Matter is the prison, that fundamentally what we are as beings of spirit. By dying, giving his only son, or allowing himself to suffer for us. God communicated to us his infinite love. And by coming back from the dead he showed us that matter and its limitations are an illusion.
Now I'm not even sure if I agree with what I just said but what it awakened within me was a realization that there is more out there to Christianity. That there are actually many different ways to be a Christian contrary to the view of Christianity that I grew up with.
My Views are very much still formative, where I stand now is that it was an act of ultimate love and an empathy for all the suffering beings of the world. It showed that God himself could suffer, and the resurrection was the conquest of death that revealed a path to Salvation. It was showing that Resurrection was possible.
20 Apr 2016, 6:44 am
Lightninggrrl wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Maple78 wrote:
There are different ways of viewing salvation (see an example below). As for how we seemingly vicariously partake of Christ's accomplishments, read "On the Incarnation" to understand how the theory goes (regardless of whether you believe it or not). Basically, the belief goes that we all inherited the effects of sin by being descended from Adam,
Please compare what you said to these quotes.
Are they all wrong and do you think your children should be held responsible for what you do?
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
Regards
DL
Guess what. Theology is a complicated topic. I know it looks like a book, but the Bible is not just a book. It's actually a library of books. It's a set of books written by many authors in many different languages in very different time periods and social contexts.
If there's one thing that atheist and authoritarian conservative fundamentalist Christians can agree on it's that God is kind of a jerk and the Bible says a lot of outrageous stuff that piss off liberals. The chief difference being that the authoritarian fundamentalist Christians look on that as a good thing and the atheist looks on that as a reason to reject the story as being logically inconsistent and externally inconsistent with modern sensibilities.
Ultimately no matter what you accept you have to think for yourself. We bring something to the Bible with us, our cultural upbringing, our experiences, centuries of tradition, a long legacy of folks studying this historic document, in the social context of our times. We have to also consider that the people who wrote the Bible brought their own things to the table. Reading the Bible means being in dialogue with it.
There are many different perspectives on how the Bible is to be both written and how it is to be read. I for one am definitely not a biblical literalist. I also do not believe that God dictated the specific words. Nor do I believe the ludicrous notion that the King James version is the most authoritative version of the Bible.
As for the death and Resurrection Jesus Christ and how it relates to our Salvation. This is one of the first things that I came to learn as I came to accept Christianity. There is not merely one perspective on how this whole thing worked. There seem to be numerous theories on exactly how the death of Christ redeemed us. There is a lot to take away from it. When I asked for I'm full of questions about it I got many different answers. It looks like people have been debating this for a very long time and they will continue to do so. My coming to the faith was marked by my finding my own take away from His Martyrdom something that had long confused me.
It does seem like a non sequitur doesn't it? What actually sparked my takeaway of it was discovering gnosticism. Well I have mixed feelings about it, gnosticism offers even more perspective. Depending on the Gnostic View, one view is that the world that we live in is an illusion. The world around us as a prison and is itself Fallen. Matter is the prison, that fundamentally what we are as beings of spirit. By dying, giving his only son, or allowing himself to suffer for us. God communicated to us his infinite love. And by coming back from the dead he showed us that matter and its limitations are an illusion.
Now I'm not even sure if I agree with what I just said but what it awakened within me was a realization that there is more out there to Christianity. That there are actually many different ways to be a Christian contrary to the view of Christianity that I grew up with.
My Views are very much still formative, where I stand now is that it was an act of ultimate love and an empathy for all the suffering beings of the world. It showed that God himself could suffer, and the resurrection was the conquest of death that revealed a path to Salvation. It was showing that Resurrection was possible.
God showed his infinite love by having his son needlessly murdered. OK.
I hope you do not love your children.
You have the Gnostic Christian view wrong as well as the purpose of religion.
Believe what you will of Jesus but if you cannot agree that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral, then you are not a moral man.
As to the earth and matter, you might recall that Christians see God cursing the earth in Eden. Gnostic Christians do not think that way. Have a close look at nature and see evolving perfection.
If you can't see God everywhere, you will never find him anywhere.
Gnostic Christian Jesus says it this way.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
It is irrefutable that we live in the best of all possible worlds because this is the only possible world given all past conditions.
Regards
DL
