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Awesomelyglorious
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08 May 2007, 11:25 pm

Anubis wrote:
That is a generalization. It is when corrupt, incompetent governments screw up that they get it wrong. Don't forget that the US public voted for Bush. The answer is forcing political candidates, especially those standing for high office, to take tests and be bound to their election principles except in dire circumstances. Old Labour didn't screw up the NHS. Governments can get things right, if they have the correct ideas and commitment. People should not be allowed to stake a career on LIES and false promises!! !! !! !!
The major problem is that no nation has ever actually ended corruption and incompetence in government, the incentive systems are wrong for doing so and are much harder to get right. Not only that but I would not necessarily want politicians to be bound to their campaign promises considering that many times they simply take a half-truth and tell it to the masses. We have our feedback system run by idiots, they are smarter than we often give them credit for, but still not brilliant by any measure.
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The world would be a much better place without such political mediocrity. Oh and I'm so glad that the Libertarian party will never get into office. Anarchism fails, and Libertarianism itself sews the seeds of societal breakdown. You just watch the Oligarchy and Monopolies erode workers' rights and create a new Feudalism. That of corporations buying out the government, and power determined by wealth. Ultra-Capitalism is Orwellian dystopia, and Libertarians' faith in liberty and skeleton government is only backed up by their wealth. Would you like to be poor in a Libertarian society? How would you like that?
How would you like seeing a loved one die an otherwise avoidable death in a developed country? Class facism, more than ever in such a society. It still exists to a smaller extent today, but Libertarianism should be exposed for what it is... class nazism. It must be stopped at all costs, and unbreakable laws set to safeguard rights that all rightful, law abiding citizens should have.
Libertarianism does not sew societal breakdown. Business couldn't get rid of the good things workers enjoy unless they are backed by a government and at the core of libertarianism is weakening the government so it cannot intervene in a manner to cause the problems of buying that government. Actually, things have improved under capitalist systems and the market based economy is efficient and not as dystopic as people would paint it as. Even the "evil" periods of monopoly and attacks on workers were marked by increases in wealth across the board and a level of competition comparable to that of the past. The avoidable deaths today were the unavoidable deaths of the past, through some forms of market structures we can improve conditions. It must be remembered that what we consider poverty today is above what 93% of the population in 1900 had, it is poverty relative to our wealth not so much to absolute conditions. I am not an anti-welfare zealot by any measure like some libertarians are and do care somewhat for the poor, however, many government programs have their problems. Class nazism? I think that is an unfair assessment of the ideology, heck, some of the anti-welfare people I know of are so because they had to make it up by their efforts and think that doing so is important. Libertarians tend to think that private measures would be more efficient than many public efforts run by the government and our experience with government tends to show that libertarians are not entirely wrong on that point either. No society has perfected their government despite the fact that such is so widely desirable.

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I apologize for flaming Libertarianism, but I despise it so.

Right, a rather emotional response. I assure you that I will not go off on my moralistic tangent against socialism and other structures of that nature though here.



Last edited by Awesomelyglorious on 08 May 2007, 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Awesomelyglorious
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08 May 2007, 11:33 pm

Anubis wrote:
I am not held to public belief or religion, much to your misunderstanding. I am a very deep thinker, and I can comprehend a great many things.
I don't think that his argument is that. I think that his argument is that too often the government that wants control will invoke religion or some other matter to enforce their will on the people.
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And purposeful government thinks better than the general population. People in general, and as a whole, are stupid, and need intelligent, benevolent, trained, open minded, but wise leaders to lead the human race. Yet human stupidity normally wins, and pathetic mediocrity prevails. I am for individuality, very much for it, but against stupidity and sheer greed. Banes of humanity, that hold it back, which shape the way people think in so many different ways, but are essential to the current capitalist system. Humans exploiting each others' flaws, in both beneficial and parasitic ways. Generally a government should regulate capitalism as such, draw the line as to what is and what is not acceptable, and save humanity from disaster. A benevolent government is unlikely, due to the sheer stupidity of humanity. Idiots such as Blair should be shot, they are comedians, not leaders.
But the government is selected by that general population on the basis of doing policies against the real needs of the people and against the efficient manners of doing so. Capitalism is not the failure you call it either, capitalism is driven by individualism and action, greed is a useless term for describing all actors within that system and many are not purely greedy. Even the ones who are still promote the aims of others. The government has not shown much benevolence though but rather a greater tendency to exploit the evils of mankind and our stupidities than ANY capitalist, yes, I even mean the people who put Paris Hilton on tv. The fact of the matter is that your controller is more corrupt than the creature it is trying to deal with, and this will not lead so much to better societies but rather corporatist ones that do kill freedom out of the need for control.
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I can say myself that I am human and have flaws.

Well, you only state the obvious. All humans have flaws, we just deal with them better when more people are involved. Capitalism involves most of the populace in trying to achieve their own goals. Government involve the few and with their power tend to cause damage and really help corporatism than it knocks it down as you would hope it would.



Awesomelyglorious
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08 May 2007, 11:42 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Sadly I think the reason the bulk of aspies go toward the left isn't because it makes more sense but because its the most special-interest friendly side. One guy even mentioned to me in these specific words "Isn't voting for the right and having a disability being like a turkey voting for thanksgiving?" - that line of logic scares me because when someone's thinking like that its not even based on the realities of what needs to be done, its really all about them (nothing wrong with that when there aren't all kinds of issues going on in this world that are far more important than them or their momentary financial comfort). As a kid I had no understanding of how people could talk about communism or socialism like they worked, no idea how people could look at the US like we're more evil than despots when we're even far more lenient than many of the countries criticizing us and are the only people who seem to care so much what the world thinks of us but the more I've seen that end of corruption and what's been mentioned before, envy (we are human beings, we're jealous as hell of the person or group who has more prestige - take Hitler for instance), and the downside of religion and people just turning atheist in the last 50 or 60 years is that while the have no god in their lives (which is supposed to be the more rational choice) they have no wisdom or sense of what we are in that case and it lends itself to them still having real dreamy ideologies that when you test them under real world circumstances their ideas fall apart. Conservatives might seem mean and nasty to some but the difference is that while some might be fundamentalist weirdos most seem to understand the darker edge of human nature much better than liberals - thus they're taking actions on things because they have to whereas liberals, not seeing that, can't put a conservative's actions in any other context than that they're war mongering and evil.

Sadly too many human beings are basic and war mongering and when you get too buddhist and spiritually high-fallutin' you become too weak to defend yourselves - evolutionarily that's failure as a species, the stronger species (usually the less evolved and more barbaric) takes over, wipes out you and yours, and its a surprising thing to see than many atheists can't see it that way to save their lives. When people get all bent out of shape because they think if the one side doesn't fight then the other won't either - its heartbreaking but you have to just realize their kids (at whatever age), wouldn't understand, and what has to be done still has to be done if you want to protect your freedom to be you and their freedom to hate you and think you're the root of all evil.

Well, that actually makes sense and I sort of believe that argument as having some validity. We think we need some protector to fight for our needs against the evils in society, this has its own problems though as to some extent as our protector is not ideal, and the solutions can be poisons. Liberals think conservatives are evil, conservatives think that liberals are blind and the story continues. Conservatism is not the evil that many like to consider it though.



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09 May 2007, 1:47 am

ahayes wrote:
America isn't a nation, it's two continents. Jeez... :roll:

lol

skafather84 wrote:
Kinda like how venezuela is forcing the tv news outlets to preach only the truth according to hugo chavez?

this is a possibility but there is a distinct difference between presenting opinion as fact and bias ............. i can deal with bias you can tell when only one side of a story is presented (im not gonna get into the Russian 50% good thing), but i have seen news outlets print completely unverified claims by biased persons as total fact


IMHO there are always people who are misinformed or just plain dont know whats going on


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Ramsus
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09 May 2007, 10:17 am

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American entertainment is original? You're f***ing kidding me, right? Do you not own a TV or something? American TV shows are all copies of previous shows, or parodies of those shows in attempts to appear intelligent. American movies are all either sequels, prequels, remakes, or unoriginal animated things. The entertainment here is sh**.

You misunderstood. If you've ever been to Europe, you'd realize they actually have very few of their own shows. They simply air all of America's shows/movies. In addition, how can you be too hawkish for AS? It effects people differantly. It doesn't define your personality, it only tampers with it.


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09 May 2007, 10:39 am

Ramsus wrote:
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American entertainment is original? You're f***ing kidding me, right? Do you not own a TV or something? American TV shows are all copies of previous shows, or parodies of those shows in attempts to appear intelligent. American movies are all either sequels, prequels, remakes, or unoriginal animated things. The entertainment here is sh**.

You misunderstood. If you've ever been to Europe, you'd realize they actually have very few of their own shows. They simply air all of America's shows/movies. In addition, how can you be too hawkish for AS? It effects people differantly. It doesn't define your personality, it only tampers with it.


well we have Neighbours and Coronation Street.



mouapp
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10 May 2007, 4:05 am

Kosmonaut wrote:
well we have Neighbours and Coronation Street.


dude your forgetting home and away


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