Transgender Olympians: The end of female sport?

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But what relevance, if any, are you implying is attached to the tone used by Drake? I'm not inclined to make assumptions regarding the depth of feeling others might experience when discussing something which offends their sense of right and wrong. And yet, it's irrelevant how strongly averse Drake is to what he perceives as cheating on the part of Hubbard. What matters is whether his self-described contempt is due to a general hostility towards trans people (unproven) or whether it's based on the actions of these specific athletes (which he confirms was his intent).

As for a lack of understanding of transgender, you'll need to direct those complaints as you see fit towards the relevant poster/s and explain your reasoning case by case. Criticism directed towards an entire thread doesn't serve any useful purpose.



Deliberate ambiguity or the convenience of shorthand?



There have been relatively few transgender athletes and prior to 2016 IOC rules required trans women to have fully-transitioned in order to compete in the Olympics, which may or may not have been a factor (presumably it was). Since 2016, transgender women are required to have a testosterone level below 10nmol/L, but there are no other restrictions. For context, women typically have between 0.5-2.4nmol/L. Of course, this is but a single factor in the physiology of an athlete, albeit an important one.



Should enough numbers of trans women decide to compete in the future, we'll have quantifiable data in the form of statistics. An increase in representation in women's sport to levels over and above expected percentages based on demographics might be considered sufficient evidence against what might otherwise be perceived as outliers. That is to say, if 0.2% of all human beings are transgender, but 1% of all women at the 2024 Olympics are trans women, it might be cause for concern.



In the case of Hubbard, the advantages of building raw mass over more than a decade of competitive weight lifting as a man certainly cannot be considered a "presumed advantage", nor can having abnormally high levels of testosterone.

"Muscles" misses the point.

This is about whether the male physique has a "mechanical advantage".

The transition from one culturally defined binary gender to the other in a society in which gender is defined culturally by anatomy and socialization is problematic when genetics doesn't neatly coattail with said normative divisions (i.e. science says that there are more than two genders see National Geographic Jan. 2017). If we remain binary we will have to expand our definition of male and female. Gender identity, anatomy, and cultural social norms will have to expand to fit our binary division. Gender identity like Paralympic athletics is a relatively new phenomena. The Paralympics is a troubling portmanteau and a division that simply excludes. The IOC still does not extend the principle of equality to "parathletes" (for emphasis only). They are still not allowed to compete along-side (not against) Olympic athletes. Their Paralympics are separate but not equal. The IOC, fortunately, has not extended this principle to transgender athletes. The IOC is aware that the testosterone eligibility requirements are subject to be challenged because the science suggests that the levels set may not accurately state that at higher testosterone provides an advantage in athletic competition (CAS Chand Decision also Scientific American Aug.8, 2016). The British Rio Olympic Team had members who are transgender. Ms Johnston: But if they were in a gold or silver ­position they’d probably drop back because their fear of ridicule is so massive. Pink News Jul. 4, 2016

Define "male physique."

If we're going by shoulder width, or shoulder-hip ratio, you'd be surprised how many cisgender athletes would fail that test. Professional athletes condition their bodies from childhood, have higher testosterone levels than non-athletes, and tend to be perceived as "more masculine" regardless of actual gender.

Bigger & longer bones, different center of gravity, taller, broader shoulders ...

See how she towers over the 2nd and 3rd place finishers ...which leads me to believe successful female physique at this level is short and wide ... again .. for better leverage


here is her using those "man" shoulders and "man" arm span to distribute the weight, so she can lift easier

Why would that be surprising? The existence of physical diversity within each sex is hardly a revelation, nor does is that an argument against the typical physiological differences between males and females.



Larger heart and lungs, slower heartbeat, faster calorific burning, greater depth perception and distance vision, greater upper body strength and hand grip, fat distribution primarily around the waist...

In youth football matches, there's a trend towards "biobanding" rather than traditional age-banding. That is, relatively big 13 year olds might play alongside relatively small 16 year olds and ordinary 15 year olds (who have similar heights and strengths) so that they can all be judged on their technical ability rather than size.

A similar system is also used in boxing, of course, even at professional level.

One possibility in the long run would be to scrap men's and women's sport altogether and replace those crude categories with more accurate ones. That could allow more people to flourish based on technique rather than just strength. I haven't thought the practicalities through, but that's probably the only "solution" to this problem. Otherwise cis women and trans men (interesting that nobody is worried about whether the current system is fair for them!) will just have to put up with their biological disadvantage

About contempt. I Googled the word. The top entry isn't how I look at the word at all. So that made me wonder if I'd used it improperly, but then the Cambridge definition has:

"contempt noun [ U ] (NO RESPECT) ​ C2 a strong feeling of disliking and having no respect for someone or something"

And that's pretty much on point for how I'm using it, with the emphasis on no respect. The dislike is there but certainly not hate. I may also be reacting stronger than I would in similar circumstances, because I love the Olympics. It's the single greatest thing on the TV there is to me. So to see the very essence of the Olympics (and sport itself) being perverted to suit a political agenda at the expense of screwing every female athlete that's worked so hard to get there is sickening to me. There may be some mild hyperbole here, but I do feel very strongly about it. I don't see these people as sportspeople. They're athletes, but there's a difference. I decided to Google that word too, and again the top definition is woefully inadequate. So I mean it in the sense of:

"A sportsman is a player in a sport; but the term also means someone who plays sport in a way that shows respect and fairness towards the opposing player or team."

Is it a political agenda, or a biological reality?

The biological reality is the average man who goes trans has a physical advantage over the average woman.

It's interesting that at least two other posters said something similar to what I said (that she couldn't make an example of someone who posted AFTER she said what she did), but you "came after" ME. Was it because the other posters were male, and I am a female? LOLOLOL TOO funny!!

As for the registration dates: I feel that coming to this site is very similar to going to a party, in person, to which you've been invited, but don't know anyone. People would probably RARELY say, in person, to someone's face, what they say to people on the Internet----and, you better believe that I will FIERCELY protect "my people", here on WP, from who I consider to be a disrespectful / ill-mannered newcomer.

There's that in-group bias I mentioned. People are people, even when they're just words on a screen, no matter how much some people prefer to think of them as caricatures of whatever they feel like projecting onto them at any given moment.

Also made me think of something a little like this:



Beware pouncing!

^^ I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, here, but, the cat is cool!!

Not sure why you think your gender is significant here, since I and MushroomPrincess are both female.


Yes, and I'm sure some people think your savior complex is charming.

-Expressing opinions about former males destroying women in sport = despicable and hateful.
-Diagnosing someone as having a disorder typically associated with schizophrenia because you don't agree with their opinions = perfectly fine.

Puts your earlier post into context:



Indeed, but only because you hadn't got around to expressing it yet.

I also find it interesting that the concern too often focuses on the physical advantages of male to female athletes, especially outliers like Laurel Hubbard. This is a common problem and can lead to conclusions that make little sense.

Alternative Facts:

Simone Biles having not made the 2020 Olympic Team due to injury transitions to male and competes at the 2024 Olympics and wins the floor exercise. His male competitors question the fairness of the competition. The IOC releases a statement defending Simon Biles pointing out that given his previous gender he was actually at a disadvantage to cis males.

A female to male athlete is accused of not actually being transgender at the 2024 Olympic men's eight rowing competition. The Russian Team denies that the athlete is an 18 year old girl. The Google searches for "beautiful russian guy eight man rowing" surged.

At the 2022 World Pairs Figure Skate Competition, the Balarus pair's performance, garners perfect scores and wins gold. The team featuring the first ever transgender pairs team. The US competitor, in tears, wonders if this is the end of pairs figure skating. "I can't lift my partner like...I mean this just isn't fair." she's quoted as saying in distress.

Etc.

That was fun.