The mindset behind trickle down economics in the US

Page 6 of 11 [ 161 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 11  Next

Antrax
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,639
Location: west coast

08 Aug 2019, 3:06 pm

Roboto wrote:

This dynamic of an interest based system is why "usury" was considered a crime punishable by death in biblical times. Modern day usury is simply "excessive interest" wherein biblical times it was any interest. When people within a mathematical system can earn enough money to sustain eternal life simply through interest earned it creates a draining element within that mathematical system that can never resolve. This element creates the necessity for more and more bankruptcies as more and more people within the system enter that realm of wealth where interest is all they need for them, and all of their offspring to survive. Those not in that club pay the price and the % of those not in the club will eternally get smaller as a percentage of the population. These are all mathematical certainties.


Without interest you have no lending incentive and thus no way for people without resources but good ideas to implement those ideas. No interest would make it a lot harder to become wealthy or maintain a wealthy status. Thus you would have an overall less productive society.

You make the assumption that people living off interest are a drain. They are not. In fact their money is being given to people who are much better qualified to make use of it, in return for being paid back more than what they lent.

Edit: As for eventually all people becoming just lenders of money. To live off interest, you actually need to make good investments that generate a rate of return. This is easy to do in a growing economy, very difficult to do in a flat or shrinking economy. If we ever got to the point of "too many investors" "not enough doers," investing would become unprofitable and people would lose their wealth doing it.


_________________
"Ignorance may be bliss, but knowledge is power."


Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

08 Aug 2019, 3:32 pm

Antrax wrote:
Roboto wrote:

This dynamic of an interest based system is why "usury" was considered a crime punishable by death in biblical times. Modern day usury is simply "excessive interest" wherein biblical times it was any interest. When people within a mathematical system can earn enough money to sustain eternal life simply through interest earned it creates a draining element within that mathematical system that can never resolve. This element creates the necessity for more and more bankruptcies as more and more people within the system enter that realm of wealth where interest is all they need for them, and all of their offspring to survive. Those not in that club pay the price and the % of those not in the club will eternally get smaller as a percentage of the population. These are all mathematical certainties.


Without interest you have no lending incentive and thus no way for people without resources but good ideas to implement those ideas. No interest would make it a lot harder to become wealthy or maintain a wealthy status. Thus you would have an overall less productive society.

You make the assumption that people living off interest are a drain. They are not. In fact their money is being given to people who are much better qualified to make use of it, in return for being paid back more than what they lent.

Edit: As for eventually all people becoming just lenders of money. To live off interest, you actually need to make good investments that generate a rate of return. This is easy to do in a growing economy, very difficult to do in a flat or shrinking economy. If we ever got to the point of "too many investors" "not enough doers," investing would become unprofitable and people would lose their wealth doing it.


Then down here you have all us poor working class people that don't have money or resources with which to make good investments that generate a rate of return. I mean yeah I guess if only us poor people would get off our asses and start investing in the stock market.

Seems insane to people people should be able to become uber wealthy just through investing and not doing any you know....work. But I don't have a great understanding of investment or what it all entails, but just seems crazy you can get rich if you just throw money at the stock market. But then people who do labor can work and work and work and never get ahead.


_________________
Tis the time to melt the Ice.


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

08 Aug 2019, 3:34 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
All I can go on are my own experiences and observations, and they tell me that the working class that I grew up among have been getting the shaft in more recent times. That's why so many working people have decided to throw away their common sense and swallow everything Trump says, while others have allowed themselves to scapegoat racial and religious minorities for all their problems, even if these scapegoated people have it worse than them.

Trump helped them out by getting rid of the ACA penalty, and cutting their taxes.


Trump ended the ACA "penalty" to try killing Obamacare in order to erase his predecessor's legacy in order to magnify his own. Pure narcissism. All he has done is put people's medical coverage in jeopardy.
Cutting taxes have done more for the wealthy's savings accounts than for ordinary workers.


Also under Trumps tax plan the tax cuts for ordinary workers are only meant to last 2 years before the rates go up again. But for the wealthiest americans their tax cut is permanent.

Yet so many poor working class right wingers eat it up like Trump has saved them...yeah for two years until the rates increase for regular working people but stay the same for the wealthiest people. I guess they did not read the fine print.


Not only did they not read the fine print, they didn't read anything at all. These are low information voters we're talking about here who barely keep up with the news and current events, who believe impossible things like "death panels," or that the tax cuts would improve the middle class. They'll just take in snippets of information spoken by politicians who know how to appeal to their fears, prejudices, and hot button issues.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Roboto
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

Joined: 22 Jul 2019
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 336

08 Aug 2019, 3:43 pm

Antrax wrote:
Roboto wrote:

This dynamic of an interest based system is why "usury" was considered a crime punishable by death in biblical times. Modern day usury is simply "excessive interest" wherein biblical times it was any interest. When people within a mathematical system can earn enough money to sustain eternal life simply through interest earned it creates a draining element within that mathematical system that can never resolve. This element creates the necessity for more and more bankruptcies as more and more people within the system enter that realm of wealth where interest is all they need for them, and all of their offspring to survive. Those not in that club pay the price and the % of those not in the club will eternally get smaller as a percentage of the population. These are all mathematical certainties.


Without interest you have no lending incentive and thus no way for people without resources but good ideas to implement those ideas. No interest would make it a lot harder to become wealthy or maintain a wealthy status. Thus you would have an overall less productive society.

You make the assumption that people living off interest are a drain. They are not. In fact their money is being given to people who are much better qualified to make use of it, in return for being paid back more than what they lent.

Edit: As for eventually all people becoming just lenders of money. To live off interest, you actually need to make good investments that generate a rate of return. This is easy to do in a growing economy, very difficult to do in a flat or shrinking economy. If we ever got to the point of "too many investors" "not enough doers," investing would become unprofitable and people would lose their wealth doing it.


These are all compelling, non-mathematical reasons why interest is popular. It still ignores that the system is built on math. 100 years of exponential growth of US debt and it baffles me that people think that's a coincidence as opposed to an inevitability or that it is sustainable eternally.



Roboto
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

Joined: 22 Jul 2019
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 336

08 Aug 2019, 3:47 pm

Trump's 2 year limit on ordinary citizen tax cuts is simply a marketing/politics ploy. It will renew every cycle so that he can remind everyone "all that he does" for the common man. It all serves to remind you plebeians that the government controls your money and then gives you the remainder. Very important stuff...



Antrax
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,639
Location: west coast

08 Aug 2019, 4:11 pm

Roboto wrote:
Antrax wrote:
Roboto wrote:

This dynamic of an interest based system is why "usury" was considered a crime punishable by death in biblical times. Modern day usury is simply "excessive interest" wherein biblical times it was any interest. When people within a mathematical system can earn enough money to sustain eternal life simply through interest earned it creates a draining element within that mathematical system that can never resolve. This element creates the necessity for more and more bankruptcies as more and more people within the system enter that realm of wealth where interest is all they need for them, and all of their offspring to survive. Those not in that club pay the price and the % of those not in the club will eternally get smaller as a percentage of the population. These are all mathematical certainties.


Without interest you have no lending incentive and thus no way for people without resources but good ideas to implement those ideas. No interest would make it a lot harder to become wealthy or maintain a wealthy status. Thus you would have an overall less productive society.

You make the assumption that people living off interest are a drain. They are not. In fact their money is being given to people who are much better qualified to make use of it, in return for being paid back more than what they lent.

Edit: As for eventually all people becoming just lenders of money. To live off interest, you actually need to make good investments that generate a rate of return. This is easy to do in a growing economy, very difficult to do in a flat or shrinking economy. If we ever got to the point of "too many investors" "not enough doers," investing would become unprofitable and people would lose their wealth doing it.


These are all compelling, non-mathematical reasons why interest is popular. It still ignores that the system is built on math. 100 years of exponential growth of US debt and it baffles me that people think that's a coincidence as opposed to an inevitability or that it is sustainable eternally.


Actually it's strongly rooted in math. The S&P 500 average rate of return over 30 years is 8% per year. This is because a diversified profile will mimic the growth of the economy as a whole. In order to be an "investor class" individual you need a pot of money where such interest is enough to sustain you. Say you want to live on 80,000 a year. You would need 1 million dollars invested and to withdraw 80,000 a year at an 8% rate of return.

If the economy slows to say an average rate of return of 5% per year. To live at the same $80,000 per year you need to have 1.6 million dollars invested. The number of people who can live off interest shrinks because the number of people that have 1.6 million dollars to invest is fewer than the number of people who have 1 million dollars. IF the person with 1 million dollars is still withdrawing 80,000 per year to live on they are actively losing money.

If the economy slows to 0% then no one can sustain off interest on a diversified portfolio. This takes the "skill-less money" away as to generate a rate of return one has to choose their investments wisely. This is actually very difficult to do. Hedge funds have very bright people working round the clock trying to make smart investments, and have a very hit or miss record of actually outperforming diversified portfolios.

Thus the pot of money required to live as an "investor class" individual is inversely proportional to the growth of the economy. The more productive the economy the less money is needed and the more individuals who can participate. The less productive the economy the more money is needed and the less individuals who can participate. Thus if investors were actually hurting the economy they would be eliminated. Instead if investors are helping the economy their numbers will grow.


_________________
"Ignorance may be bliss, but knowledge is power."


LoveNotHate
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,195
Location: USA

08 Aug 2019, 6:38 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Rainbow_Belle wrote:
Over the last 40 years since Trickle Down Economics was introduced under Reagan and Thatcher, in US and UK, the elite top 1% now control 50% of the wealth of the world. 99% of the population have to get by on the remaining 50% of wealth. How on Earth is that a fair deal? Taxes on the rich and corporations should be lifted to reduce poverty, create more jobs and more opportunities for all citizens. I believe in taxing the rich more and redistributing wealth, universal health care and universal education that provide more opportunities for all citizens not just the wealthy elites.

Seems the fairest.

People keep the money they inherit or earn.

You're suggesting it's "fair" to steal their money, and give to others?


Are you suggesting taxation is stealing and we shouldn't have taxes?

When money is taken from you without your consent, what do you call it?

Image


_________________
After a failure, the easiest thing to do is to blame someone else.


HighLlama
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2015
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,017

08 Aug 2019, 7:04 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Rainbow_Belle wrote:
Over the last 40 years since Trickle Down Economics was introduced under Reagan and Thatcher, in US and UK, the elite top 1% now control 50% of the wealth of the world. 99% of the population have to get by on the remaining 50% of wealth. How on Earth is that a fair deal? Taxes on the rich and corporations should be lifted to reduce poverty, create more jobs and more opportunities for all citizens. I believe in taxing the rich more and redistributing wealth, universal health care and universal education that provide more opportunities for all citizens not just the wealthy elites.

Seems the fairest.

People keep the money they inherit or earn.

You're suggesting it's "fair" to steal their money, and give to others?


When were economics or government about fairness?



cberg
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Dec 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,183
Location: A swiftly tilting planet

08 Aug 2019, 7:06 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Rainbow_Belle wrote:
Over the last 40 years since Trickle Down Economics was introduced under Reagan and Thatcher, in US and UK, the elite top 1% now control 50% of the wealth of the world. 99% of the population have to get by on the remaining 50% of wealth. How on Earth is that a fair deal? Taxes on the rich and corporations should be lifted to reduce poverty, create more jobs and more opportunities for all citizens. I believe in taxing the rich more and redistributing wealth, universal health care and universal education that provide more opportunities for all citizens not just the wealthy elites.

Seems the fairest.

People keep the money they inherit or earn.

You're suggesting it's "fair" to steal their money, and give to others?


Are you suggesting taxation is stealing and we shouldn't have taxes?

When money is taken from you without your consent, what do you call it?

Image


I call that private healthcare. :roll: We have a medical industry in this country, in other more civilized countries, medical industry stops at the hospital door because taking people's money to benefit private interests is harmful. If the government is not taking your money, private interests will take more of it because they represent unregulated greed.


_________________
"Standing on a well-chilled cinder, we see the fading of the suns, and try to recall the vanished brilliance of the origin of the worlds."
-Georges Lemaitre
"I fly through hyperspace, in my green computer interface"
-Gem Tos :mrgreen:


cberg
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Dec 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,183
Location: A swiftly tilting planet

08 Aug 2019, 7:07 pm

Let me make this simple for you: the purpose of money is not to hoard money. The richer the minority gets, the less money is circulating. Money only exists as a means of representing exchanges. There is no other valid reason for using it.


_________________
"Standing on a well-chilled cinder, we see the fading of the suns, and try to recall the vanished brilliance of the origin of the worlds."
-Georges Lemaitre
"I fly through hyperspace, in my green computer interface"
-Gem Tos :mrgreen:


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

08 Aug 2019, 7:15 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Rainbow_Belle wrote:
Over the last 40 years since Trickle Down Economics was introduced under Reagan and Thatcher, in US and UK, the elite top 1% now control 50% of the wealth of the world. 99% of the population have to get by on the remaining 50% of wealth. How on Earth is that a fair deal? Taxes on the rich and corporations should be lifted to reduce poverty, create more jobs and more opportunities for all citizens. I believe in taxing the rich more and redistributing wealth, universal health care and universal education that provide more opportunities for all citizens not just the wealthy elites.

Seems the fairest.

People keep the money they inherit or earn.

You're suggesting it's "fair" to steal their money, and give to others?


Are you suggesting taxation is stealing and we shouldn't have taxes?

When money is taken from you without your consent, what do you call it?

Image


Taxation is the cost we pay for living in a civilized society. No taxes, no roads, no police or fire protection, no military, etc.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


blazingstar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Nov 2017
Age: 72
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,234

08 Aug 2019, 7:39 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Rainbow_Belle wrote:
Over the last 40 years since Trickle Down Economics was introduced under Reagan and Thatcher, in US and UK, the elite top 1% now control 50% of the wealth of the world. 99% of the population have to get by on the remaining 50% of wealth. How on Earth is that a fair deal? Taxes on the rich and corporations should be lifted to reduce poverty, create more jobs and more opportunities for all citizens. I believe in taxing the rich more and redistributing wealth, universal health care and universal education that provide more opportunities for all citizens not just the wealthy elites.

Seems the fairest.

People keep the money they inherit or earn.

You're suggesting it's "fair" to steal their money, and give to others?


Are you suggesting taxation is stealing and we shouldn't have taxes?

When money is taken from you without your consent, what do you call it?

Image


Taxation is the cost we pay for living in a civilized society. No taxes, no roads, no police or fire protection, no military, etc.


When I hear people complain about taxes, I think, as above, don't these people have sewers, clean water out of a tap, roads, interstate highways, firefighters, etc?

Then I hear people who complain, I don't have children, why should I pay for schools? Well, who do you think educated your police, firefighters, your doctors and dentists, your gas station attendants, the construction workers who build those roads, the plumbers who unstop your toilet, the people who repair our roads and bridges, etc?

We all benefit from our taxes and I never mind paying my share. I may disagree about how it is allocated, but I don't mind paying.


_________________
The river is the melody
And sky is the refrain
- Gordon Lightfoot


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

08 Aug 2019, 8:25 pm

blazingstar wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Rainbow_Belle wrote:
Over the last 40 years since Trickle Down Economics was introduced under Reagan and Thatcher, in US and UK, the elite top 1% now control 50% of the wealth of the world. 99% of the population have to get by on the remaining 50% of wealth. How on Earth is that a fair deal? Taxes on the rich and corporations should be lifted to reduce poverty, create more jobs and more opportunities for all citizens. I believe in taxing the rich more and redistributing wealth, universal health care and universal education that provide more opportunities for all citizens not just the wealthy elites.

Seems the fairest.

People keep the money they inherit or earn.

You're suggesting it's "fair" to steal their money, and give to others?


Are you suggesting taxation is stealing and we shouldn't have taxes?

When money is taken from you without your consent, what do you call it?

Image


Taxation is the cost we pay for living in a civilized society. No taxes, no roads, no police or fire protection, no military, etc.


When I hear people complain about taxes, I think, as above, don't these people have sewers, clean water out of a tap, roads, interstate highways, firefighters, etc?

Then I hear people who complain, I don't have children, why should I pay for schools? Well, who do you think educated your police, firefighters, your doctors and dentists, your gas station attendants, the construction workers who build those roads, the plumbers who unstop your toilet, the people who repair our roads and bridges, etc?

We all benefit from our taxes and I never mind paying my share. I may disagree about how it is allocated, but I don't mind paying.


AMEN!! !


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


wowiexist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 660
Location: Dallas, TX

08 Aug 2019, 9:56 pm

Antrax wrote:
wowiexist wrote:
Antrax wrote:
Roboto wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
To me, "Trickle down " seems better economics than forking it over to government (and blindly hoping that some government agent will put it to better use).


Trickle down only works if money is allowed to trickle down. Too often it does not. With government regulations and labor and wage laws, there's much more of a guarantee.

Seems like the opposite.

When you take money from business owners, they have less profit, so workers have to get squeezed.

However, cut taxes, cut labor laws, cut regulation , then business owners have more, so workers can have higher salaries.


It's true that they "can" have higher salaries, but the reality is that they don't.


I'd very much like to see evidence of this reality.


Evidence would be the George W Bush economy. The economy was strong during the Clinton years. When the economy was slowing at the beginning of Bush’s tenure he used tax cuts for the wealthy and the economy just got worse.


The Bush tax cuts were passed in 2001, 2003. The recession of 2000-2002 was followed by a period of steady growth. Unless you want to blame the tax cuts for the 2008 recession, which has no basis in reality.


I don’t know about steadily but I guess it somewhat improved. Another example could be the Sam Brownback tax policy in Kansas.



Antrax
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,639
Location: west coast

08 Aug 2019, 9:57 pm

cberg wrote:
The richer the minority gets, the less money is circulating.


I'm sorry this is strictly speaking not accurate and represents a fundamental lack of understanding of economics. It is possible for the minority to get richer, while the majority also gets richer, and for more money to circulate. This is in fact was has happened in the american economy over the last 80 years.


_________________
"Ignorance may be bliss, but knowledge is power."


LoveNotHate
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,195
Location: USA

08 Aug 2019, 11:22 pm

cberg wrote:
I call that private healthcare. :roll: We have a medical industry in this country, in other more civilized countries, medical industry stops at the hospital door because taking people's money to benefit private interests is harmful. If the government is not taking your money, private interests will take more of it because they represent unregulated greed.

You want Donald Trump to have your money or you?


_________________
After a failure, the easiest thing to do is to blame someone else.